Also known as The Battle of 3/4 vs. 6/8

Archived here for reasons obvious to the denizens of the All About the Music thread.

Monday, August 10, 2009 - 01:49
chawan:
I'm off on a tangent, but since Lie is in 3/4 time and that is the time sig of a waltz, that makes it a kind of dance music, right? So my fantasy is to have Lie on SYTYCD. They'd probably use a remix of the album version. A beautiful waltz or contemporary routine. Hey, they have a new season starting in Sept.

(I also came across an explanation of 3/4 vs 6/8. It's in the grouping. Using 8th notes, in 3/4 time it's 12-34-56 where in 6/8 time its 123-456 so the "feel" of 3/4 is 3 counts and the "feel" of 6/8 is 2 counts. I probably explained that badly and you guys probably already know that, but I didn't or forgot I ever knew.)

Monday, August 10, 2009 - 13:58
KarenLE67:
Have we agreed that Lie is in 3? Because hearing it live at one of my shows last week, I remember thinking to myself "Aha! It IS in 6!" And I think it was the *phrasing* that clinched it for me, the way both the melody and the instrumental carry across the six eighth notes rather than only across three quarter notes. Someone get Neal on the phone...

Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 11:17
cimorene:
Hmmm.... well, since it seems it was my offhand comment in my Lie deconstruction (/end self-pimpage) that started the discussion on the meter, I figure I should provide another reason why I think it's in 3/4 -- listen to ADAM, and you'll hear the difference. I'm pretty sure ADAM is in 6/8. Lie, though -- it's different, and in the second set of 3 beats, the downbeat is just as strong as in the first set, from what I hear. Not so for ADAM. As always, though, JMO, and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind the disputation of this.

Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 11:55
chawan:
I'm not a musician, only took a couple of years of piano 40+ years ago. Don't play now. However, if it sounds like a waltz, to me, it's in 3/4 time. Just the fact that there are 8th notes does not make it 6/8 time. You can group 2- 8th notes together to equal a quarter note, time signature wise.

Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 22:13
YaminaC:
Foil! Diphthongs! Toggle Switches! Skib! The battle of 3/4 vs 6/8! Speculation! It doesn't get better than this.
{Archiver's note: While technically, this post did not add to the debate, I still love it so it's included here.]

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:24
cimorene:
Oh, and I'm going to repeat myself here anyway -- whoever maintains that Lie is 6/8, please, listen to Lie, and then listen to ADAM, and then explain to me how you think they have the same time signature. Because I just can't hear it and would really love to understand that reasoning.

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 13:20
KarenLE67:
Lololol, I don't think they're in the same time signature - I think Lie is in 6 and ADAM is in 3! I could be totally, utterly, ass-talkingly wrong, but it's been on my mind and I may have some time to start working on it this afternoon. My theory is that the answer lies in the accompaniment, not the melody, and how the rhythm is (or is not) subdivided. I'm also wondering if there are differences in the DCTR vs. live performance versions that may be the root of the disagreement.

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 13:40
KarenLE67:
And of course, we need this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 13:50
YaminaC:
Try conducting it in three. Then try ADAM. By jove, I feel Lie in 6 and Adam in 3, too KarenLE67! Dang I wish we could video conference! LOL.

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 14:26
cimorene:
Argh. This time sig thing is killing me. Whoever had that sneaky (and mysterious, since no details were posted) idea about confirming song lyrics, could you also possibly find a way to clear this one up, too? KarenLE, just read over the wiki time sig article, and it seems to me the upshot is that it's just a stylistic call and has no major bearing on what we hear... but I don't buy it., because why bother? And YaminaC, I don't know much about conducting -- can you clear up specifically what I should do to hear what you're hearing? 'Cause I tried paying attention to the drum beats for both, and now they follow a similar pattern -- muffled strong drum beat, beat, beat, sharp strong drum beat, beat, beat -- so could they both be in 6/8? No! I can't be wrong! Ack! *resumes bashing head against wall in frustration*

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 14:41
YaminaC:
cimorene - this is the best I can do. After this, I throw down my baton and wait for published sheet music LOL.
3/4: Feels like "One and Two and Three and " 3 groups of 2
6/8: Feels like "One and uh Two and uh " 2 groups of 3

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 14:47
cimorene:
Sorry, Yamina;. throw down the baton. Still not hearing it. If anything, the speed of conduction you'd need for a 3/4 on ADAM is just ridiculously fast -- but even though the tempo on Lie isn't any slower, it just *feels* that way, to me, and works better in 3/4 in my head.

Sigh. Just one more thing to look forward to when we get the sheet music, I guess.

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 16:40
redana:
I don't get to post here very often (darn this thing called Real Life), but I do have input re the 3/4 vs 6/8 debate: In my experience, having accompanied traditional Danish folk dancing on violin for years (as well as years spent in different amateur orchestras and choirs), it really makes no difference what time signature, say, a waltz has. The main issue is whether it's dividable by three or not. If it's dividable by three, then people will waltz to it, and thus it will (or at least can be made to) feel like a waltz. As far as I've been able to figure it out, it's a question of personal preference on the part of the composer/transposer. Some like the look of 3/4, others of the 6/8, mainly, I suspect, because of the force of habit.There's no certain rule for what gets used when. You can conduct 3/4 in a way that's very fluent and the bars can go together two+two, just as if it was 6/8, and conversely I've seen 6/8 conducted as if it was 3/4 (ie each bar divided into two, creating the traditional feel of a waltz). Really, it can be very confusing.

Personally? ADAM feels like 6/8. Lie feels like 3/4 - which is to say that ADAM feels less like a traditional waltz than Lie does. That, however, doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how it's actually notated. It's all in the interpretation.

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 17:42
YaminaC:
Thanks, redana. That explains why I keep changing my mind! LOL.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thus endeth the discussion. Until the sheet music emerges.

Total time it lasted: 4 days
Final resolution: To date, undetermined
Reaction to hearing mention of it in an interview: priceless