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ALL ABOUT THE LYRICS: The Wordnerdy Half of the Songwriting Coin
Joined: Sep 2008
Chicago, IL
Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 11:00
ALL ABOUT THE LYRICS: The Wordnerdy Half of the Songwriting Coin
By popular demand, I present All About the Lyrics, intended as a permanent home for discussion/deconstruction of the words in David Cook’s music. (This includes David’s own work and his work with collaborators.) All About the Lyrics provides a forum for observations, criticisms and feelings regarding the words, spanning work from Axium, “Analog Heart,” the “lost album,” DCTR, and all future releases. Discussion must be limited to work that has been published, recorded and/or performed. (Discussion of leaked material/snippets will not be allowed, by the expressed direction of TPTB.)
Potential subjects for discussion include:
* What the words ARE (in absence of definitive text from the author)
* Themes of particular songs, as well as common themes in the body of work
* Use of metaphor and simile
* Use of compositional techniques such as rhyme (end rhyme, internal rhyme), meter, alliteration and so on
* The influence or possible influence of lyrical collaborators
* The potential meaning(s) of songs
* Citations of interviews where David discusses his process/thoughts regarding the creation of lyrics
Please limit your citations of lyrics to portions being discussed, rather than always quoting the entire song, unless the entire song is relevant to your post. This will help make the length of posts more manageable.
Because there is obviously significant overlap with our sister thread, All About the Music, I direct you there for relevant information regarding David’s musical influences, as well as covers he’s selected to sing.
I launch this enterprise with enthusiasm, but also with sympathy for the guy whose work is the subject of scrutiny. In his own words from a recent interview: “The lyrics have to be perfect.” With such an attitude, he’s clearly invested. You don’t have to love everything he writes, but – respect for the writer will be required here.
And finally, a cautionary tale about deconstruction, particularly in terms of figuring out what a song is “about” or where it “came from.” It’s risky business to wade in these waters, and it’s good to remember that very often, opinions regarding “what it’s about” say more about the observer than the subject. If he author does not choose to make an overt explanation, then it’s “about” whatever you, as the listener, make it to be. I am entertained by the following passage by the novelist, critic and author C.S. Lewis. In discussing critical analysis of one of his essays, about which the critics were putting forth varied theories regarding Lewis’ process, influences and feelings, he said:
Reviewers, both friendly and hostile, will dash you off such histories with great confidence; will tell you what public events had directed the author’s mind to this or that, what other authors had influenced him, what his overall intention was, what sort of audience he principally addressed, why – and when – he did everything….
My impression is that in the whole of my experience not one of these guesses has on any one point been right; the method shows a record of 100% failure. You would expect that by mere chance they would hit as often as they miss. But it is my impression that they do no such thing…. As I have not kept a careful record, my mere impression may be mistaken. What I think I can say with certainty is that they are usually wrong.
Nevertheless. Analysis is fun, and is a compliment to the writer if done with this caveat in mind. So, once more into the breach, dear wordnerdy friends!!! Analyze away!!!
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Resources (general)
Transcribed lyrics for This Loud Morning album, confirmed against album liner notes.
Link to music/lyrics from DCTR here at DCO. Recently reappeared after absence. Still problematic.
http://www.davidcookofficial.com/us/music/david-cook
Unofficial lyrics compilation by the fans at the DC42 forum,, as well as their consensus regarding differences between their analysis and the lyrics once posted at DCO. Documents courtesy of ellemarie.
UNofficial UNconfirmed lyrics c/o CookiesBR
DCTR lyrics at Cherry Lane Music Group, David's publisher, of yet-unverified authenticity
Unofficial discography, extensive, chronological, by DCO regular QTTaquito
Unofficial discography, extensive, alpha order by writer/co-writer, by DCO regular QTTaquito
Resources (individual songs)
"Permanent" analysis by the folks at the d-c.org forum, aka "The Dash"
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Comments (1338)
OK. I will say this much, re 'let me fall'.
This, to me, is not so much a post-loss song but rather a song about the impossibility of sustaining a real relationship while attempting to protect yourself. "I was wrong thinking my heart can be my own."
This would be what would happen to the POV character in 4 Letter Word if he did, in fact, manage to choke the word out, lol. What would happen if the character in TMAIA could manage to say"these words unspoken."
I think it is a mature confession that self-protection ultimately does not work. It's begging the other party to stick with him, to ... talk him into surrender, basically, since he's hanging onto his independence by a thread at this point. Recognizing that only by surrendering yourself -- letting yourself go completely, not trying to slow down any more, letting your heart be burned up and remade, confessing your need for the other, the one who holds the truth, who is steadfast, who is like a sign -- can you learn to fly.
It's quite a song. Even from the words. Have not yet heard the music. Cannot wait.
If I can be pure enough, if I can be selfless enough, and if I can be generous and loving and caring enough to abandon what I have and my own preconceived, silly notions of what I think I am ... then the music can really use me. -- John McLaughlin
Sorry you have had some frustration, minstrel. Lisa has advised us to be patient while the kinks are worked out, but when I was locked out, I had a pretty anxious night and early morning. There are still some glitches -- the Edit button is liable to disappear and then show up on someone else's post, then back where it belongs again. The Blog Post feature isn't usable, nor is the Preview, etc. I hope no one gets discouraged and gives up; after I get my order, hopefully tomorrow or Tuesday at the latest, I will at last hear the bonus songs, have the "real, true" lyrics to everything, and be eager to discuss them.
I love this album, too. I'm pretty sure that I will for a long, long time. Like forever.
Spending some quality time with David.
*****************
There's always hope..... Pt78
I've always been a music 1st kinda girl, mostly because the music I listened to growing up, you couldn't understand the words to half the songs anyway. So I've been sitting back, waiting for the official lyrics to arrive before I took a stab at how I felt about any of them. I'm still waiting for my CD to arrive, so I can listen with the lyrics in David's handwriting right in front of me. But! And I've only listened to the bonus tracks a couple of times each, but that bridge at the end of LMFFY? Grabbed me the 1st time I heard it. So distinctive, lyrically, and musically. In fact, I love it so much it is my new signature. Gorgeous, in a heartrending sort of way.
Let me fall like a stone in the water
Let me fall like a plane out of the sky
Let me crash, let me burn my heart out
Let me learn to fly ~ David Cook
Been locked out of the forum, then out of town and locked out with wonky access.
Wow,the lyrics to that bonus song just kinda freaked me out. So much going on in there. Yeah, there is a linkage to 'we believe' in there and ... I could say a lot about it, because I have a lot of thoughts about it, lol.
Since 90% of the thoughts probably go off into questionable territory, forum-wise? Maybe I won't.
I love this record. So, so SO much.
If I can be pure enough, if I can be selfless enough, and if I can be generous and loving and caring enough to abandon what I have and my own preconceived, silly notions of what I think I am ... then the music can really use me. -- John McLaughlin
Opa - Guess I'm one of the ones who have not yet posted here about the lyrics. I am still absorbing the richness and magnificence of this great work. I am expecting my fan pack (with guitar!) soon.
I certainly agree with what has been said about GTTG. As a person and a mental health professional, that song devastates me as soon as it starts. It is so desparate and hopeless. I have been reactive to the suicide ideations right from my first look at the TLG vid. At that time, some people dismissed my feelings about it, about how it scared me despite the funny twist and ending.
As so many of you have said, given that we know how layered and complex David's lyrics have always been, "goodbye to the world" certainly can be all those things already suggested. If the song cycle had been songs depicting a waking consciousness thinking, then the suicidal ideation might be the actual meaning.
But, and it was said by one of us but I can't find the post right now, as he is dreaming, then his saying goodbye to the dreamworld could be a meaning, too. In REM, he is trying to get back down into that. I know I have woken up from a dream I wish hadn't ended and tried to go back to sleep to try dreaming it again. Sometimes we wake up slowly, know we are emerging from the dream world and have to say goodbye to it.
I briefly skimmed and saw that there was some discussion about whether the songs will be misinterpreted by vulnerable young people as an endorsement of suicide. And I agree that that is absolutely not what David meant. But it did worry me with the video.
On the other hand, that video can also be used to promote awareness and to educate about suicide prevention. Because, after all, he did not kill himself in the ocean.
Speaking of ocean - that is a recurring symbol in several songs in the album. When I finally have all my lyrics in front of me, I will write about my thoughts on that.
David is a romantic poet in the sense that Keats, maybe Percy Shelley, and Coleridge are romantic poets, with a focus on the world of imagination as a desirable alternative to real life. In that world the woman is metaphor for all that is desirable but dangerous. (La Belle Dame Sans Merci) (Kubla Khan) Just revisit Keat's Ode to a Nightingale and you will see echoes of ideas in David's Circadian and REM: "I don't want to be in this harsh [real] world of pain and suffering. I would rather escape/ disappear into the night to wherever this bird is disappearing-- a world where it will sing its eternal song."
@alamodame on Twitter
"Like a sign, like a sign,
You were the voice that knew the truth."
Cye, I love your enthusiasm and your analyses are really interesting, too, so I agree, "babble" as much as you want. We seem to be enjoying it.
UPS hasn't stopped yet at my place... eta to remove my own babbling. ; )
"...you put a microphone on that guy and out comes madness." -- Matt Serletic
i'm in agreement with cye. it seems like there's a lot of point-counterpoint on TLM. it's a good way to show not only both sides of a relationship story, but also the struggle for clarity in one's own head. the arc was probably somewhere in his mind, but it didn't really hit him for a while. like, sometimes you're working on something, and you get an idea: hey! i can do this with this, and it turns out i've set up the groundwork perfectly! delayed genius lol.
i can't comment on the bonus tracks yet, but when i get my cd, i'll be sure to respond to any discussion then. well, after doing my happy-flail-snoopy dance.
and I will read and enjoy it, CYE. I might make a comment of my own, I'm still digesting it all.
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark". - Michelango
LuckyDuck, there was a second thing in there which somehow got lost between my brainz and the interwebz. And now it has flown the coop entirely. But rest assured, when it returns, I will be sure to post it here
Is this story worth forgetting?
CYE,
Babble away, I enjoy reading your posts.
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark". - Michelango
I'm a bit disappointed that no-one wants to play with me when I'm like a 13 year old in the first flush of first love - I just want to babble about this incessantly with anyone that will listen to me.
Three things that I'd like to bring up:
> One significant change from previously discussed lyrics -> On TMO, it's "Can’t turn it off, won’t make it through" instead of 'we'll make it through'. A lot less hopeful than what we thought initially. Which brings me back to David saying it 'rides the fence' between love is great and love sucks. I'v been thinking about it, and IMO the 1st verse is about how great love is - you gave into love, you were all that I needed. In the second verse he turns that 'you were all that I needed' onto his head - now it's tinged with the bitterness that she left when he needed her so much. Also makes TLG as the next song fit better - in TLG the bitterness has turned into (kinda) 'well, good riddance.'
> The third thing is the one that intrigues me most. We know Hard to Believe was written long before the writing for TLM started. And IIRC, Right Here With You was the first song that David started writing on for TLM. So it intrigues me that RHWY is lyrically an almost exact counterpoint to HTB. In RHWY the theme is that "And if the sun stops burning and the world stops turning
I’ll be right here with you
And if the sky keeps falling and the night keeps calling
I’ll be right here with you"
Whereas In HTB he is exhorting That Girl to keep on believing in their love even though "When stars fall and ground breaks,
You're sinking 'cause it's too late
Don't tell me that it’s over
Even though you're finding it hard to believe"
Which makes me think RHWY was written exactly for this purpose - to serve as counterpoint. And which in turn, raises the question for me how early in the process David conceptualized the story arc of this album. Because if RWHY was written specifically as a complement to HTB, David must have decided very early on that HTB was going to be on the album, and that there was going to be variations on the same themes in the album.
Also, kinda cool to me how he does that looking at the same thing differently thing which is so characteristic of his lyrics over the course of a few songs on TLM, instead of in one song as he normally does. This theme of clinging on to hope in the face of loss runs through the entire album, but there's the progression from the leap of faith hope at the start to the desperate hanging on to hope when things start to fall apart to the loss of all hope by the end of the dream sequence.
> Also, also* there's the lyrics of TINTLT, which is the complete opposite of GTTG. An alternate ending, if you will, where he still does cling on to hope that this is not the end, that "This is not a goodbye
This is just a lullaby
And everything will be alright'
> Which brings me back to where Let Me Fall For You would have fit into the story arc if it had made the main album. I'm still torn between somewhere close to We Believe (on the basis that he wants to make the leap of faith, even if he crashes and burns) or as part of the alternate ending (even though it has all crashed and burned, he wants to do it all over again).
> Lastly, may I just say how much I flove flove flove these lines from LMFFY:
Let me fall like a stone in the water
Let me fall like a plane out of the sky
Let me crash, let me burn my heart out
Let me learn to fly
Over to you guys.
* I warned you that I can't stop babbling about this.
>
Is this story worth forgetting?
I got say that I'm feeling quite stalkerish about Let Me Fall For You. The opening piano part draws me in and then I hear Dave's lyrics and voice and I'm done. I hope he sings this live. I just love the gritty bridge:
Let me fall like a stone in the water
Let me fall like a plane out of the sky
Let me crash, let me burn my heart out
Let me learn to fly]
I wish this song was on the record. The whole vibe and storyline could fit into the theme of TLM. I think the song would fit on alt rock radio. Not that they would play it.
what use is a paper heart, when you're stuck in the rain, stuck in the rain
'cause all the love that I hold inside; feel it washin' away, washin' away
Aw poo, I was really hoping that line in "Paper Heart" would be "damn me and my paper heart AND this pouring rain," rather than "IN this pouring rain." Y'all will recall that I gave this big old explanation for why I thought that should be the lyric. Oh well. lol
Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"I hope this record doesn't flop. But if it flops, I got to write a song on a major-label record with my friends, and I'm...I'm good." -- David Cook
The complete lyrics, corrected from the liner notes, are here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/58715670
Check it out - there are a few changes from what we said here before. And it's definitely
'rhymes beside your bed' and 'winner's history' in Circadian.
Is this story worth forgetting?
I was wrong, I was wrong
It's "You were the voice that knew the truth."
And 'It's almost over"
Which kinda changes the meaning considerably
ETA: Also, next to the lyrics
Let Me Fall For You
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Is this story worth forgetting?
This is going in my recap, but I wanted to go ahead and mention it here, just because it's somewhat relevant to the current discussion.
A few of us were chatting with Andy about GTTG. I told him how much I loved the last line, and that even though I'm not a very emotional person, that line really hit me in the gut. I also said I thought it was the best line in the song. He told me that he agreed with me, and that when he saw that line in the lyrics, he knew it was right for the song...that that was what the lyric should be.
Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"I hope this record doesn't flop. But if it flops, I got to write a song on a major-label record with my friends, and I'm...I'm good." -- David Cook
From the Broken Record Magazine quote:
"It's kind of about saying goodbye to a relationship, but also saying goodbye to life."
Saying goodbye to life? I agree that it could mean saying goodbye to his current world and hoping to find a new one, which is slightly hopeful, I guess. However, I feel like the quote adds even more credibility to the suicide view. I'm still buying into the Inception-like idea, so I don't consider it "real" suicide. It's the kind of death that you would experience in a dream, causing you to wake up with a jolt. There's also the possibility that the dreamer just knows he's about to wake up. If that's the case, he could be saying goodbye to the dream world, with no intentional actions to make himself wake up.
Somehow, I feel like that last line has a lot of importance to David. I'm sure he'll never tell, but I don't think he would have just stuck it in there for effect. It's probably a message to himself, something only he (and possibly Andy and Neal) understands entirely. While I love speculating and trying to come to our own decisions, I'm okay with not knowing what it means to him.
I find the other part of the quote interesting, as well. I wonder why he turns his topics into relationships? Is it to keeps some anonymity to what he's really thinking, or is it just easier to write? Perhaps he thinks listeners will understand better if he wraps his thoughts in a relationship? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Don't look down, don't look down,
By now it's too late to take it slow...
cye: Thought I'd just bring over something I missed - Dave describing Time Marches On as a song that rides the fence between 'Love sucks' and 'Love is great". Discuss.
i wanted to post my reply to this last night, but my eyes couldn't stay open. i was very intrigued when dave said that. it made me think more about the song...i think we kinda thought that the "other person" was gone in this song, but gone how? physically? emotionally? both? especially the line "who's to say that you're not already gone" seems to be trying to figure that part out, leaving out narrator feeling a bit stuck. it's a very ross and rachel we-were-on-a-break feeling, and you're not sure which idiom will define you: "absence makes the heart grow fonder" or "out of sight, out of mind." meanwhile, time doesn't stop, and this is all slipping into the past.
as for his quote on GTTG, it fits with what i had thought before, that at it's core, the song is about leaving behind your old life, and trying to move on to a new one. good stuff, that tune is.
Morbid? Never to me. But goodbye to life can be interpreted in many ways. The literal one is always there, IMO. Breaking my no-Dave-centric-lyric-interpretation rule to say it also made me consider interpreting lyrics from POV of someone who is dying. Will report back if I find anything report-worthy.
What I also love about that quote is that it confirms something we have discussed before - that he transposes whatever he is really writing about to a romantic relationship. So although so many of his songs are about That Girl, they are really not.
ETA: Forgive me - it seems Twitter has irrevocably corrupted me. I don't even notice when I'm writing telegram-style. However it is useful from the POV of honing my ability to write succinctly - something I've always had a real problem with, if you haven't already noticed LOL.
Is this story worth forgetting?
This is my first comment about GBTTG, whose beauty I appreciate more with each hearing. First, I have never believed the last line is to be taken as the POVC literally considering suicide. I also believe DC knows very well that this meaning will be attributed to it by some listeners, and he's typically avoiding any straightforward explanations of what he actually does mean. There are many ways of withdrawing from the world. We have all seen examples of those experiencing the stress of sudden fame, with or without the addition of personal grief, who fall into seeking relief in substance addiction or other self-destructive behavior. Severe depression itself can be seen as withdrawal. Are the bruises (black and blue) suffered as a result of romantic heartbreak, or the buffeting of the psyche by the "nowhere to hide" aspect of fame, coupled with helplessness during the cruel inevitability of Adam's illness? To leave the question unanswered is artistic prerogative.
Surely DC is expecting lyrics like this to be thoughtfully discussed and interpreted; it shows that they are actually being heard. GBTTG to me is not morbid, any more than touching, evocative poetry is morbid.
ETA: As I went to tidy up this post, I found the EDIT button --- on someone else's post! After refreshing a few times, it was back where it belonged. The webnerds are obviously still battling the glitches. That reminds me; I've noticed the absence of some frequent posters around the threads and wonder if they are having problems, as I did for a time, with logging in. Each time someone appears saying, "wha hoppen?" I am reminded of the missing people climbing down from the mother ship in Close Encounters, lol.
Spending some quality time with David.
*****************
There's always hope..... Pt78
From BrokenRecordMag (thx to ImogenPH)
* On GTTG: "Cook hinted that a song about romance doesn't always start this way, and often ideas are epitomized into a relationship. "Lyrically... I'll take things that aren't necessarily about love... and personify it as a woman. It's kind of about saying goodbye to a relationship, but also saying goodbye to life."
Discuss.
Is this story worth forgetting?
CYE, love your analysis-- aligns with mine-- in my head because I don't have the knack to say what's in my head much of the time as well as you do! Thanks for realizing it on "paper."
@alamodame on Twitter
"Like a sign, like a sign,
You were the voice that knew the truth."
Am I the only one who still wants to talk about this? I am soooooo in love with the emotional storyline of TLM. I'm not sure about the etiquette of this, but I want to bring over this from another board. Sunchick describes it so much better than I ever could:
SUNCHICK'S ANALYSIS
Circadian- The act of waking up, literally or metaphorically, which is when it all comes crashing in..
Right Here, With You—>Having hope in the face of doubt.
We Believe—>Taking a leap of faith…
Fade into me—->….while tripping on X. Groovy baby. XD
Hard to Believe—>Coming down off the high and realizing things aren’t so rosy anymore, but still hoping for the best.
Take Me As I Am—> Do what you can to be, be who you need to be, just in case….
Time Marches On —> …cuz fate is a fickle, nasty b**** sometimes, and you have no choice but to resign yourself to that fact…
The Last Goodbye—> …and accept some hard truths about life and loss.
Paper Heart—> Hell with that. Acceptance sux. Damn me for caring.
4 Letter Word—->If I pretend not to care, I can’t get hurt.
Goodbye to The Girl—>But I do care. Sometimes I wish I could just check out for while…
Rapid Eye Movement—>cuz I want to feel the way I felt in the past, when I still had hope and stuff, but I fear it’s only possible to get there in my dreams/memories.
MY THOUGHTS
For me, this is exactly what I get from TLM. Rather than the hopeful side of loss, it's about the yearning for hope after loss. And for that reason We Believe is central to the album. I'm probably projecting, but that was exactly what I struggled with after loss - even if you are not a religious person, in your heart you want to believe that this all makes sense, that bad things will not happen to good people, that there is some hope of redemption at the the end of the tunnel. For me, this album represents the attempt to cling on to that hope.
Also wanted to talk about Let Me Fall For You. This song fits in so well thematically with the rest of the album.
LET ME FALL FOR YOU LYRICS
I was wrong, I was wrong,
Thinking my heart can be my own.
I was strong, I was strong,
When I had a reason to hold on.
Let me fall, let me fall for you.
Let me fall for you.
Don’t look down, don’t look down,
By now it’s too late to take it slow.
Turn around, turn around,
Give me a reason to let go.
Let me fall, let me fall for you,
Let me fall for you.
It’s over, it’s over,
I’m hanging by a thread.
With all the words
You never said
I’m going under,
So tell me what to do.
I’ve got nothing to hold on to.
Let me fall for you.
All the time, all the time,
You were the one that got me through.
Like a sign, like a sign,
You were the voice that told(?) the truth.
Let me fall, let me fall for you.
Let me fall for you.
It’s over, it’s over,
I’m hanging by a thread
With all the words
You never said.
I’m going under,
So tell me what to do.
I’ve got nothing to hold on to.
Let me fall for you.
[Let me fall like a stone in the water
Let me fall like a plane out of the sky
Let me crash, let me burn my heart out
Let me learn to fly]
At first I thought it fits in close to We Believe, because of the leap of faith aspect of it. But this is much darker. There's both unbearable loss and the yearning to believe. So where would you guys have put it in the tracklist if this wasn't a bonus track?
ETA: Edited to make it clear which parts are my thoughts and which not. For some reason the HTML codes don't work for me.
Is this story worth forgetting?
I don't like when this thread falls so far down the list. Especially since everything is so shiney and purty around here. Thought I'd just bring over something I missed - Dave describing Time Marches On as a song that rides the fence between 'Love sucks' and 'Love is great". Discuss.
Is this story worth forgetting?
CYE, I absolutely love your interpretation. Short, sweet, to the point, and it makes sense! Can I have that written up and inserted into my yet-to-be-shipped album? I need to remember it! Actually, can I just take it over to the "Best of DCO" thread? That's almost required reading, haha.
I see someone has already beaten me to posting my GTTG theory, but mine is ever so slightly tweaked. The second time I listened to GTTG, when I heard the "Goodbye to the world" lyric, I did think it was about suicide. My immediate thought was that the POVC, still in his dreams, had taken to suicide to end the pain of the dream. I have a brother who is a semi-lucid dreamer, and he's told me that when stuff turns sour, he jumps of a cliff are lays under a bus, haha. Thinking about it that way, my interpretation is something like "This world sucks, I'm done with it", the POVC offs himself, wakes up, and then thinks "Crap, this reality sucks even worse." Still kind of morbid, but I can live with it. And I agree that just because the song exists, doesn't mean David himself had the thoughts.
I owe everyone here a big "Thank You"! I was having a miserable time trying to figure out what 4LW was really about. I love the explanation given here, about not wanting to use "the big L word" because it will ruin everything. Being able to understand the song allows me to appreciate it much more. Looking at it in that context, I think David is having a little fun with the fact that swear words are all four letter words. Calling love a four letter word, to me, is akin to calling it a swear word. "Lets not use it. It makes everyone feel bad and mucks stuff up. Besides, we don't really need it to say what we mean, do we?" Just my take.
I know this is a lyric thread but my thoughts refer to the lyrics and music of HTB so I don't know if I should post them here....if there is another thread better fitting please let me know.
So I finally got myself off of my ponies and started to listen to some other songs that I put in the back of the stall.
I was listening to Hard To Believe and noticed the drum beat in the beginning. It took me back to my childhood and being in a drum and bugle corp. The drumbeat reminded me of the beat we used in parades when were were at a standstill and they used it for us to mark time in place. In HTB I feel he is pleading for that someone to remain with him and stay within their own idleness. He pleads "stay with me" and that he is "right here". He doesn't want an onward march that would bring inevitable changes. He is almost longing for that place, that standstill where nothing changes.
i really liked seeing cye's storyline cuz it's a little different from mine, and i like all the options. to me, i see it as a love story with no love song. (well, no "real love" love song anyway lol.)
RHWY begins with a guy who sees a girl with other guys who aren't good enough, and he declares that if he ever got the chance, he'd never let her go. waiting for her, he feels he knows her better than those losers she's with, and he's created this romantic ideal fantasy. WB can be worked in as the scene about not giving up cuz you know there's good out there for you.
FIM is, on one hand, sweet and romantic and about having that one good thing in your life. but it's also a little selfish, using someone as your escape. it's almost happy, but a little lacking to me. (of course, that's kinda how i feel about the song, so it colors my story a bit.)
the uncertanity comes out in the next act. HTB has one person trying to convince another that this isn't too good to be true, no matter what might have happened in the past. TMAIA is pleading with that person, really trying to connect in spite of any flaws. TMO is where things begin to waver. you can leave if you want, but i can't put my life on pause, waiting for you to come back.
TLG then has one person saying hey, we tried this and it isn't working, so we should end it. it'll be better for us both not to drag it out any longer. PH almost is a response then, with the other person maybe being less okay with that decision, being sick and tired of putting their heart out there only to get hurt. but hey, if you're okay then that's just fan-fricking-tastic.
4LW is where things aren't so linear. it's a good fit musically, but i'd almost want it before TLG. it's trying to avoid a problem by living in denial. hey, things are great! we're just having fun here! don't make me define anything beyond that! for whatever reasons, they're on two different pages, and it's going to cause a rift.
GTTG then is the end of the story. it's where he has to let it go and face the reality of his loss. of course, when you have such a story bookended with circadian and REM, "reality" is hard to define. you try to sleep away the day, but then in dreams, your brain keeps trying to process what you might not want to think about. it can be easy to hide, but less simple to escape. wanting to hold on to the dream, but needing to let go.
CYE, I love your "story" for TLM, especially for "Paper Heart." That's a great way to transition from TLG to Paper Heart.
Hi Incipit9! I had a few days and thought I would enjoy all the posts now that TLM is streaming. So many different POV's to enjoy. Check your PM.
Blackkathy
POV - Point of View
POVC - Point of View Character - the character portraying the point of view in the song, story, whatever
OP - Means Original Post, or first post on a thread - it also means the Original Poster - or the thread starter. (Or, the Other Person, if the OP says so. Heh.)
ETA TA - Call her 'That Girl" with quotes, maybe? That what David did - complete with air quotes, when he said most of his songs are about "That Girl". Just a thought.
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ETA - Hey there, Nanc! Still doing the *snap* moments, we are. *wink*
__
Incipit9 ♫♪♫ And we all sang along
POV = point of view
POVC = point of view character
I think when CYE used OP it = other person in the song.
I think the reason I like HTB is because in a healthy relationship it is at this point a couple could get real with one another instead of living the illusion. That for me is emphasized by the haunting background singing of "If your lost I will guide you." With the song order it isn't the path the couple takes, but then if they did the album would only have 5 songs and a few couple therapy sessions.
Scrolled down & racked my brain - can't figure out:
POV
POVC
OP (other than Original Post)
Took me forever to figure out TPTB, so need you clever kids to enlighten me please!
Heh. Of course it's a gross over-simplification. We Believe is better characterized as The Truimph of Hope Over Experience. And what makes it more poignant is that the POVC* realizes this - even in the face of no supporting evidence, we still cling on to our belief and hope that this all makes sense, that it will all by okay in the end.
In Hard To Believe the cracks are already starting to show, but the POVC is still clinging on to hope, while the OP** just sees the cracks as confirmation of her experience that things never work out in the end.
And the OP has already left in TMO, which means TLG does not quite work lyrically. But I still think it works in that space as a kind of defiant send-off, a defensive mechanism of 'Oh well, good riddance - it wasn't working anyway'.
I love how the songs can stand in their own right, but how their juxtaposition (drink!) adds more layers to each of them. For example, the imagery in Hard To Believe is the counterpart of the imagery in Right Here With You - but in RHWY the POVC has completely surrendered to the hope that even if the world falls apart, their love will survive, whereas in HTB it's already clear that it's not going to work out that way.
I love how the real last goodbye is GTTG and not TLG. And I love how Fade Into Me is the counterpoint to REM in that the OP does (at that point in the relationship) succeed in lifting the weight of the loud mornings.
ETA: Forgot to add key to abbreviations
* Point Of View Character
** Other Person. Can we just call her The Girl already? Because overtly, this is what these songs are about.
I'm not a frequent poster on this thread, and admittedly haven't read through the entire discussion of the TLM songs yet, but I have skimmed through the GTTG discussion and find this to be most on point for what I think about the song:
tiger-eyed: David did tweet, I think, about how much he loved the movie "Inception." In the dream, the way to wake yourself up is to kill yourself. Lots of people falling off bridges, laying on train tracks, etc. in the film. If we accept D's notion that everything between Circadian and REM is a dream state, then GTTG is that dream you have in the morning, just before you wake -- where the escape of sleep and dreams is no longer sweet, and the dream content is catastrophic, or becoming so, and you wake with a pounding heart. POV character is falling, falling.... and then awake, in REM. But not by choice. He isn't ready to face the loudness of the day and seeks to try again to seek shelter in sleep.
In this scenario, again in context with the rest of the album and its overall story arc, the singer is saying goodbye to his dream-world, not the world as the rest of us know it. However, I think minstrel is right on with her concerns about that phrase *outside* the context of the album. I don't have kids, but I was one once...and while I never had suicidal thoughts myself, I know of people who did (teens and later in life, sadly) and I can imagine them listening to this song as those thoughts swirl in their head.
CYE, how fun to wake up to your post. I absolutely love it.
CYE - you win in life!
I like the brevity of your story arc but I really LOL with this:
The Last Goodbye -> Well, let’s just end this. See how much I care
Paper Heart -> Damn it, I do care
Four Letter Word -> Okay, it wasn’t the last goodbye. Let’s just pretend this doesn't mean anything, and maybe it will last
I just found it amusing that the unspeakable four letter word would get the longest explanation. And thanks to all who have opined on this song - I have much better appreciation for it now.
Circadian -> I’m going under
[escape to dream-reality]
Right Here With You -> I’m in love
We Believe -> This is going to work!
Fade Into Me -> And the erm … cuddling is transcendental
Hard To Believe -> Uh-oh
Take Me As I Am -> I’m begging you
Time Marches On -> This is not going to work
The Last Goodbye -> Well, let’s just end this. See how much I care
Paper Heart -> Damn it, I do care
Four Letter Word -> Okay, it wasn’t the last goodbye. Let’s just pretend this doesn't mean anything, and maybe it will last
Goodbye To The Girl -> It didn’t last. And I am going under (again)
[ Escape to real-reality]
REM -> I’m going under
Minstrel: you have mail.
Although I'll admit that the idea of refraining from saying "I love you" in a relationship is kind of foreign to me. I've only had two relationships in my life, but both times, we were throwing "I love you" around within a day or two of the start of the relationship. It just wasn't that big of a deal. Maybe that was a sign that the relationships were doomed to fail? lol
LOL, coolshades, I don't think it was because of that. A good reason would be because those relationships were not for you and that there'll be someone better for you in the future. You'll just know and feel it when the time comes and that everything is just right. I hope someday David will have this kind of relationship where he would feel it is right for him that he would experience happiness and satisfaction about the whole thing.
About FLW, I think some people find it difficult to say "I love you" is maybe because it is such a very heavy and meaningful phrase to them that action (not the "x") could only say and show it. It is such a revered and special phrase. That by the time those words would be spoken, it might lessen the seriousness of the meaning and make it seem nothing because it becomes familiar (just words and don't mean anything when it is easily said like it's an ordinary thing.)JMO.
I really would like to see Hard to Believe as the next single. I have tended to gravitate to it over the past few plays. And I agree GTTG is a little (understatement) too dark for radio. Minstrel you are absolutely right about impressionable kids misunderstanding through it being out of context. Makes me think of a friends teen daughter getting arrested for vandalism after listening to Carrie Underwoods single Before He Cheats. All went well, friend and her DH paid for the headlights, and DD did 500 hours community service.
no prob with the song... it's a very beautiful song. no prob with D singing it, no prob with D's having written every word of it, explored the dark places (and yeah, syl, much of the Axium work was very dark so there is some precedent), no prob, period, with the song. in the ALBUM. in the context.
As a possible single release, the way it is? I have some qualms about it, yeah. (Sorry, D. I love you and your work so much, man, whether you are sunny or defiant or goofy or thrashing about in the pit of despair. And I love that you got to write this with N & A and get it recorded in such a spectacular fashion. I love that, truly. but but but.)
Singles live outside the album. Singles are a statement outside the album. Singles are heard by a broad audience on the radio who don't know the album, don't care about the arc, etc etc etc. So the widespread fan love for the idea of releasing this beautiful song as a single the way it is written? In a way that validates such a final solution to the pain? (Because it's the overt reading. You can 'metaphor' it out of there, but ... it's the simplest and most overt reading of the end of the song.)
I can't say "yeah, radio!" I'm so so sorry, but ... I've got teen kids, I've seen too much of that dark post-breakup depression in the peer group, the blackness without perspective or context, the appeal of any solution that stops the hurting forever. And the powerful influence of music to abet that mood. D would never hurt himself, quite obviously; he's a life-affirmer at core. Worrying about HIM, past or future, is not the source of my concern about the song as a potential single.
There's an easy mitigator, as I proposed earlier, that would not be an artistic sellout. IMO. I can't express it any more clearly. Words have consequences; people can be moved by them. (Otherwise, just write instrumentals, lol.) Perhaps I just have an unreasonably twitchy, overly serious, maternal reaction. D has to write what he writes, sing what he sings.
Will stop now.
cimorene: and seriously, where's the concern for Neal? Anyone?
hahahaha! i was thinking the same thing! "oh no, dave could hurt himself!" "naw, it's prob just neal." "oh, okay then." i kid, i kid.
but no, really...i think the death imagery in GTTG makes total sense. it's the death of this relationship, the end of life as it had been for a time. it's about feeling the pain of it all and not being sure what comes next. to pick up the discussion of the "ledge," i see it more like standing on the brink of a new, unknown future and being too scared to move. you want to cling to what you've known, but at some point you have to take a leap of faith and move on, even if it means ending up right back where you are now.
as for why love is a four-letter word, well, i see it as they say "love" and you hear "doom." there could be many reasons as to why you don't wanna hear that word said. maybe you're scared of being hurt again, or maybe you just don't want to feel forced to say it back even though it's a lie. or maybe you're just a jerk. either way, that sort of thing can put you on different levels, and it tends to come between some people. you're trying to just enjoy the moment, and suddenly it's all too serious and you have to leave. i liked hearing the stuff about KOTN cuz i really do see these songs as a bit of a pair.
Haven't read the entire discussion here re: GTTG's darker lyrics, but I've got a random thought brewing:
David did tweet, I think, about how much he loved the movie "Inception." In the dream, the way to wake yourself up is to kill yourself. Lots of people falling off bridges, laying on train tracks, etc. in the film. If we accept D's notion that everything between Circadian and REM is a dream state, then GTTG is that dream you have in the morning, just before you wake -- where the escape of sleep and dreams is no longer sweet, and the dream content is catastrophic, or becoming so, and you wake with a pounding heart. POV character is falling, falling.... and then awake, in REM. But not by choice. He isn't ready to face the loudness of the day and seeks to try again to seek shelter in sleep.
As for 4LW, I concur that 4LW seems to be out of order in the story arc. The line "Love is a 4 letter word" on its own makes me think of the angry stage of grief, which is then followed by the depression stage in GTTG. In context, however, 4LW seems to fit better between TMAIM and TMO.
Hey, new people! Welcome! (Says she who really has rarely posted until the last couple of weeks. But I'm generally around, even if I'm quiet.)
VillardStill, thanks for your observations. I found your observations on D's perspective on love within the KOTN context and how it may relate to 4LW especially salient, even if, like you, I'm not really sure where to take it from there. Maybe someone else better at analysis? As for the isolation aspect, I actually took from that two different things. One, that in the ways that he wishes he could be less isolated -- in being able to communicate with those he encounters in his daily life without his celebrity status coloring everything he says, and thus constricting him -- he is not. And one, in that in the ways he could be more isolated -- in his private life remaining isolated and not made public -- well, he's been relatively successful recently (inasmuch as I have no idea what's going on in his private life other than what he's made public), but clearly that must take some effort, to stay off the grid. It's kind of a backwards way of living, IMO, and I'm sure that has colored his perspective on things. Since I doubt either aspects of isolation will change in his life anytime soon, I imagine this is a theme that will appear in future creative endeavors as well, should it affect his life in any meaningful way.
Also, barbwyre, I do have to comment on your suggestion that D would prefer we not discuss his lyrics as... emotionally as we have. Because, honestly, I don't see how that's going to work in a forum like this. It would be great if we were all uninvested and could look at things objectively, but... we're here because we *are* invested, we *do* care, and the work that he has wrought has touched us all, intellectually, emotionally, or what have you. He's said before that he's been puzzled when the fans talk about everything other than the music -- in fact, that's what led me to create this thread's sister music thread in the first place, to provide a venue for just that sort of thing -- but the implication there is that he's really, actually, totally fine with us dissecting every note/word/syllable for meaning. And yes, he's also said that often fans give him too much credit, but I've never read his tone as critical when he's said that. Bemused, maybe. Befuddled. But not critical, although of course you may disagree.
Still, your comment about hiding the razor blades does lead me to make one small, but I hope, relevant point -- just because he may have felt a certain way at some point in the past does not mean he still feels that way. He may have felt suicidal, or the death themes may have been Neal's influence (and seriously, where's the concern for Neal? Anyone? *I WAS JUST KIDDING HERE AND I DO NOT INTEND TO START A FAN WAR. THANK YOU.*). Or he may have been writing from the perspective of someone altogether different than we suspect. Perhaps someone we are familiar with, and perhaps not. So I do think we do have to temper any concern that rears its head over these lyrics with some common sense. The writer is still here, seemingly happy and excited over his new album, and eager to see where it takes him. That is not the mark of someone who thinks he is not long for this Earth, no matter how he may have felt in his lower points.
Carry on.
Just wanted to drop in and say thanks for the analysis of 4 Letter Word, I was having a hard time understanding why "love" was the 4 letter word, and I think y'all hit the nail on the head here.
Also, as far as giving Neal sole credit for the death/suicide images, has everyone forgotten Somber?
Inside I'm empty and outside I'm numb
And I keep on waiting for the pain to succumb
Inside I'm lonely, outside I'm alone
As the world falls apart in the end
Hate floods my body and thoughts cloud my mind
Can't shake the cobwebs that I find, yeah
The darkness flutters around my head
Sometimes, I wonder, Am I dead?
That was Dave and Jeff, I think, and the suicide imagery is pretty inescapable in that song. I don't think we can assume that just because Dave has a great sense of humor, and is kind, that he doesn't have these dark thoughts circling in his head from time to time. I seem to remember an interview he did (gosh, I can't even remember when, now, maybe right after Idol?) where he's asked how he stays so calm, and he responded something like, he puts all his dark/stressed feelings in his music, so he doesn't carry them around anymore. Sorry I can't cite the source, but knowing that, and having seen what he's been through over the last 3 years, I am totally not surprised we got the album that is This Loud Morning.
And to be contrary, lol, just because he writes this stuff, doesn't mean he was ever actually considering acting on it himself. That's the beauty of creative license. He can see where someone in that position could go to the suicide place, and so he writes about it. We don't have to take the words so literally. Although it's interesting to talk about it. =)
Maybe "jumping off the ledge" has more to do with plummeting to earth. Using the other songs, the arc of the relationship or relationships is/are very romantic sounding. Going to Paper Heart he has a soggy hole punched heart. 4 Letter Word he recognizes that "Love" in his relationship isn't all things beautiful and lasting. Then GTTG leaves him quite down and dark. Maybe it is time to give up his romantic notions of love and fall to earth where love can finally be grounded in an honest assessment of what it takes to have a successful relationship.
As far as leaning on the edge, it is a place where a person can have a foot in both worlds until they make their final decisions. Holding on to what feels safe, while gazing toward different possibilities.
I know this has already been cover. Time to get to sleep.
grins. we're about dissection, barb. we love therefore we dissect. dissectors are us. if it drives D nuts .... he doesn't have to look, yes? (i think he probably looks sometimes. love ya, D.)
Seriously -- if the work didn't move me, shake me, make my heart beat fast and my mind spin and my eyes water? There'd be nothing to write. Writing is how I (and apparently some others) process stuff. One hopes he'd be complimented by the fact we take him this seriously. If he were writing "on the floor" for JLo there wouldn't be anything to discuss, other than how cool it is that the city of Ibiza could be worked into a lyric....
So glad to have new stuff to discuss. For a way long time, this thread had ... nothing to discuss.
ETA did not want to pass w/o shoutout to all former lurkers/current posters. please continue this. and villard, thx for the story re KOTN and the middle finger and love. Yeah, i've heard many variants of that banter though did not know it was accompanied by the salute. maybe i mostly saw G-rated shows, lol. But it'd make sense. Thematically that 4LW song is... quite Cookian....
Wednesday, June 22, 2011 - 00:07
barbwyre:
The "leaning on the edge" phrase is interesting...as an edge is usually an intangible thing that you can't physically lean on.
I don't think that line is the end of the sentence, though. The entire sentence is "I'm leaning on the edge of jumping off the ledge." The first similar line that comes to mind is Lady Gaga's "I'm on the edge of glory." It's not a literal edge he's talking about. It's more like "on the verge of." He's on the verge of jumping off the ledge.
Sometimes I think it's posts like this where we dissect David's every move that drive him nuts and make him feel like he needs to get away - even in a dream.
Anyway - I found the "I just listened to 'Circadian' and we need to hide the razor blades" comments sort of amusing in a bizarre sort of way. And when I heard GTTG I thought "oh no." More of the same.
Given that Neal helped write it, and a track record of songs about death, I can see that.
Of course, whenever you leave someone close to you (romantic or not) a part of your world does end. That's a pretty global feeling.
Unless you're one of those nutcases who says "If you leave me I'll kill myself." But I don't think that's the meaning of the song.
Anyway - it's a beautiful song. The "leaning on the edge" phrase is interesting...as an edge is usually an intangible thing that you can't physically lean on.