ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC -- the Other Half of the Songwriting Coin
Joined: Dec 2008
New Jersey
Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 12:58
ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC -- the Other Half of the Songwriting Coin
Welcome to the All About the Music thread, where you will find discussions ranging from songwriting process and musical influences to detailed posts about time signatures, chord progressions, and key changes. And anything in between.
This thread began when I was feeling more than a little lonely here on DCO, thinking I was the only music nerd out there who wanted to discuss all that technical stuff that seems so mysterious to so many fans about David's music. At which point I realized that there was, oddly enough, no thread in which to do that.
In an ideal world, we'd be discussing the ins and outs of all the aspects of the songs David has written, lyrics and music alike -- but it looks like, however informally, we've already arrived at the former (and I understand that -- lyrical discussion only requires English fluency, which is a lot easier to acquire than musical fluency). So let's try to even the equation, shall we?
Any topic of discussion as relates to the music is welcome here, including that about other band members and their musical contributions to the recordings and/or performances, past, present, and future. Lyrical discussions are welcome as well, as long as, again, they relate to the music. (If anyone wants to start a complementary Lyrics thread, please have at it -- I'd do it myself but this thread is enough for me to manage!) And any question, however simple, is welcome. I don't think anyone claims to be an expert here; certainly not me -- but I think we can all learn from each other about what it is about David's music that fascinates, and entertains, and affects us all.
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Resources
Musical Execution
-
Deconstructing the Music
- An assessment of DC's vocal range by Enan_2.4
- JennaWN's YT channel contains stripped versions of all of DCTR, most of AH and THH, and some Axium songs -- by which I mean, versions without the main vocal, so you can hear the instrumental tracks and backup singing much more clearly. Highly, highly recommended to provide a unique perspective on the songs' creation.
- Would You Sing My Song? -- An archive of the original versions of all covers David has sung, and all known covers of David's songs by established artists.
- The Deconstruction Archive -- An archive of posts made on this thread explaining what was different about selected musical performances and interpretations by DC
- This Song Is So Out of Key... -- Notes on key signatures for songs from DCTR, and others, both in the recordings and in live performance, by normanthecat
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Basic Musical Theory References
- Basics of music theory
- Guide to musical scales
- Wkipedia explanation of time signatures
- Glossary of musical terms with audio examples
- What chords are in what key, and why? on chord structure for guitar playing, provided by minstrel.
- On the Tuning Awry -- an explanation of alternate guitar tunings, link provided by normanthecat
- Instrumental References on Wikipedia
- Guitars (discusses tuning and capos, etc.) and Electric guitar (includes a section on effects)
- Multiple guitar players
- Rhythm guitar, Lead guitar, and Bass guitar
- Guitar effects and Bass effects
- Guitar amplification and Bass amplification
- Guitar harmonics (science! math! and things Neal might be doing!), Distortion, Effects pedal, and Guitar tuning
- Drum Kit
Thanks to KarenLE67 for compiling these.
David Cook Discography, Sheet Music, Lyrics, Chords, and More
- Discography and Libraries
- David Cook Unofficial Discography by QTTaquito provides all known credits to all known songs DC has written
- Album Writing Credits for DCTR, including non-DC-written songs, by BethRiot
- Pre-Idol Video Library, compiled by LadyBirdSF, contains links to videos of all DC's pre-Idol music, from Axium to Analog Heart to those unpublished songs we actually know of.
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Official sheet music, lyrics, and chords
- Official sheet music for Light On and Permanent (presumably more to come)
- Actual, official chords for Light On with a handy lesson
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Unofficial guitar tabs, chords, and lyrics sites for DC songs (thanks to Normanthecat & JLG for providing them) Some versions are undoubtedly better than others.
- Could you play me something new? -- Normanthecat has collected some of the better tabs that have been posted here into a blog
- ultimate-guitar.com
- GuitarETab.com
- 911tabs.com
- www.megachords.com
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Piano lessons and covers, and sheet music for selected songs
- Permanent piano lesson -- Introduction
- Permanent piano lesson -- chorus & verse
- Permanent -- full piano cover
- Sheet music for aforesaid Permanent full piano cover
- Light On piano lesson
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Unofficial Lyrics Sources
- CookiesBR's lyrics file contains a comprehensive list of all lyrics (however, not necessarily all of the lyrics are confirmed, unfortunately) from songs David has sung. The DCTR lyrics are those that had originally been posted on this website before they were removed.
- www.lyricsmode.com
David About the Music: Comprehensive musical interviews and playlists (Thanks, David! We love this! Keep it up!)
- The Musical Interview Archive contains links to all articles containing pertinent musical information.
- David Cook -- Musical Likes and Influences -- A comprehensive list of songs that David has mentioned in various interviews or other media, compiled by G*Marie; an excellent resource, including the additional songs appended in the comments.
And, per request, Because at the end, it really is all about the music -- an open letter -- my blog post, which I hope DC reads at some point, informing him that while we'd love to talk about the music, we'd appreciate any nuggets of information he'd consider throwing our way as he sees fit.
Comments for this Forum Topic
I have now listened to a personal selection of songs from Hammond, and I have to say this about Make Believe : If they do an EP, this song will be the single and it will go to #1. The more he plays it, the stronger, more interesting musically it emerges, and the hotter he presents it. It has all the elements to attract a wide audience, especially a headbanging young guy audience. The pounding drums, the staccato drum part that separates the verses and bridge, the modal switches from major to minor and the incredible power behind it are adding up to more than the parts. And of course, the Voice, which gets more confident each time he sings it.
I don't think any of us, including David, knew what a great song this is on the first day out.
I have to also say that Avalanche was one of his bravest performances, what with the higher key and his bare bones guitar playing. A real tight-rope performance that took lots of guts. Maybe that's why he has held back on playing it for so long, he was tweaking it and changing the key.
Oh, boy. What will we do without our nightly David fix?
Wow. I've just spent way too much time catching up on concert videos from last night, and I can't not write at the moment. It's hard to divest a lot of what I want to say from the all the emotional stuff; last night's concert, even on YT, comes off as a party -- as triumphant -- more than almost any other set of performances I've seen by this band since, well, about a year ago. But maybe it's not really necessary to stay completely objective. So much of DC's music IS emotional, and heart-wrenching, and joyful. So here goes, and I hope you'll bear with me.
Sylvanaire, that's a pretty cool question. It's hard to tell just yet -- I'd wait to listen to a few more takes on the song before making up my mind entirely -- but you're right, in that it does sound different in that video. Sort of like they lowered the volume drastically on the high-pitched riff (the one that plays in the background of the last half of the verses) and just started playing rhythm guitar -- extremely low-pitched rhythm guitar -- and bass. It's deep, and heavy, and I never thought they'd bother tweaking the song to make it more bad-a$$, but there you have it -- that's how it came off to me. Very cool (which is also funny, coming from me, given that I usually adore the complicated riffs -- but this song has enough of them to keep me happy even if they do mute them in the interlude).
As for the other songs -- I had listened to DCTR in its entirety a couple of times yesterday, as I'm sure many of you did, out of nostalgia. And listening to the music they played last night just made everything hit home for me, in what incredible artistry is found in this band. NOTHING is the same as how it started. Oh, sure, Heroes is pretty close, and so is LO, but overall -- every song that might've needed tweaking, every song that could have been improved upon, is just so much more incredible one year later. Declaration, possibly, as mentioned above. LOTM's acoustic makeover. Lie. IDIFY's reincarnation as a rock song. Avalanche stripped down on the electric with the a cappella. KOTN and the Hotel California mashup. Shattered Dreams, which is better than I remember (and of course now I'm reinspired to deconstruct it... I WILL get it done). Make Believe, which is growing into an incredible addition to the set -- and offhand, there are reports from the post-show M&G that it was penned exclusively by DC -- to paraphrase, based on fan reports, he said the lyrics & melody came to him while he was on a plane without any instruments.
And of course, Permanent. Maybe it's because I don't listen to it very often; maybe it's because it's not played often; but like fine china, he he took it out for a special occasion and polished it up, and it gleamed. That note on "head" just kicked me in the gut and I am still floored.
It's been quite a year. So Mr. Cook, if by sheer chance you happen to be lurking here today -- thank you for the music. Thanks for writing it, and thank you for making it better every time I listen. There aren't a lot of artists who'd bother doing that., and I want you to know -- it's very, very much appreciated.
Here's to many more songs.
Hi, everyone! I was just listening to the first of last nights 1 year anniversary concert vids, and the first one I clicked on was Declaration. It has his announcement of singing the entire record in order at the beginning, but what I'm here to ask you is, does the mid song musical interlude sound different from what they usually play, or is it just that the camera only picked up part of the instrumentation? Starts at 2:16, but the whole vid is great if you have the time to watch it, d'uh!
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~You are love, you are life, you are Peace of Mind~
Quick drive-by post to point out to those of you who aren't aware that Make Believe made the setlist last night for the 2nd time. Will wait to post a link until we have a good number of videos from which to pick one where the sound is at least decent.
And along those lines, QueenJ, if you're still lurking out there, are you still keeping track of the setlists? Because last night included not only MB, but also Souvenir & Honest (both in succession) -- which strikes me as an unprecedented switch-up of the usual... or does that still fit into your templates? (Including all 3 songs, though -- MB, Souvenir, & Honest -- strikes me as pretty heavy on the unreleased content, even though there were no MWK covers or AH songs.)
Fer sure, min, it makes sense they'd lower the DCTR stuff to preserve The Voice to the extent possible. I remember that I couldn't tell the key of the songs had been changed till I listened to DCTR side-by-side with YTs of live shows. I just can't hear a difference of a step or half-step unless I hear two versions one after another.
Now that you've said what you have about Skib's range, though, min, I'm even sadder that I can't hear the MWK version of that cover. Because more is always better.
Andy is capable of singing quite high notes, and in fact i think his normal comfort range might well BE a little higher than Dave's. The timbre of his voice is much more reedy/nasal (which I like a good deal) and is nicely suited to choices of higher keys, as a general comment. Though David has an impressive range he has a rounder, more baritonish tone, to my ear -- when he is not singing in the falsetto register, of course.
but I also would not discount their choice to lower almost EVERYTHING for the tour, including all the stuff on DCTR that Andy never sang. We've discussed this here before; i have to believe this was a choice meant to preserve D's vocal stamina over a long tour cycle. It is insane, the number of shows they have done, so close together.
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If I can be pure enough, if I can be selfless enough, and if I can be generous and loving and caring enough to abandon what I have and my own preconceived, silly notions of what I think I am ... then the music can really use me. -- John McLaughlin
Ok gotcha. Thanks for the info
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
coolshades, my ear wouldn't be good enough to tell the difference between two otherwise identical versions, if I heard them at different times, and the only difference was that the key had been changed by one step. You might remember that it took some of us a while to figure out they'd transposed a lot of the DCTR songs down 1/2 step for live performance. One "step" is a small difference. The difference between one white key and the next one on a piano, if there's a black key between the two. Or, two frets on the guitar. I don't know what it is on the harmonica - maybe I'll learn...
You wouldn't notice the key change, I bet. You would, of course, notice differences between the MWK version and the Cook/Anthemic version - just like there are with Anodyne and Make Me, which Cook seems to be performing in the original keys and with similar arrangements to the originals. But, I don't think such a small change of key would, of itself, affect the sound of an arrangement.
What surprised me is learning that they'd transpose an MWK song into a lower key for Cook's voice. I guess because Skib seems much more comfortable with lower notes, where Cook has that amazing tenor range. For instance, remember when they were doing Anodyne (*sighs wistfully*)? I kind of felt like it was at the very bottomest bottom of Cook's comfort zone vocally. And it was in the original key, the same key Skib recorded it in. Written with Skib's voice in mind, and, I think, definitely within Skib's range, though maybe at the low end.
So, it's odd to me that they'd "tweak" it a teeny bit lower for Cook's voice. I dunno. Maybe the Skib will sing us a verse before the tour ends, and we can figure it out for ourselves. I can hope...
Ok normanthecat, for those of us who aren't too musically inclined...how would the MWK version of Yo Arms have sounded different from the David Cook and The Anthemic version? Would a regular, not-so-music-savvy person be able to notice the difference at all?
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
How's this for real-life procrastination? Just watched the most recent Died in Yr Arms (with my eyes closed, so's not to be distracted by the patriotic drumming superhero), and, guess what:
It's in C-sharp-MINOR. Not C-sharp. Either Cook forgot a word, or interviewer forgot to transcribe a word, but, there you have it. C-sharp-minor, which is a lovely, straightforward sort of key. When you tune your guitar down 1/2-step, it's like playing in Dm, which is also a lovely, straightforward sort of key.
[And, for the insufferable-music-nerd record, the original 1-step-higher MWK arrangement woulda been in E-flat-minor, which is a little weird, but, when you tune those guitars down, you play it like it's E-minor, which, once again, is a lovely, straightforward key in which to play.]
[And, betraying my non-singerliness, I'll admit to being surprised they'd transpose it down a step to get from Skib's comfort zone to Cook's. Anyone else understand how that can be? Unless... is there a part where he takes the whole thing up an octave, where Skib maybe didn't? Guess I'll have to listen again. Oh, how I suffer...]
Oh, come on, norman, join me in my RL procrastination!
Seriously, I think I love you for bringing that over. Classic, classic moment. No, you are not the only person who loved it -- but to regain any sort of coolness or credibility I may have, I feel the need to point out that I liked the song when I first heard it appended to the Titanic score by James Horner, before it was blasted on every Top 40 station in the Western Hemisphere.
Still -- Dave, Celine, falsetto, band playing in unison? I so <3 all of those boys right now. I really, really do.
(MUSIC NERD SQUEEEEEEE!!!! (In D-flat, just to be contrary *wink*). )
normanthecat, I second that squee. You can see in the video that Andy is figuring it out as he goes along....thinking about the song in his head and then finding the right notes. I used to watch my dad do that when I was a little girl. We'd be watching a movie or something, and my dad would have his guitar with him. The end credits would come on, and within a few minutes, my dad could play the song that was playing over the credits. It boggled my young mind.
And now all these years later, I see an entire band do basically the same thing...during a show...and yeah, my mind has been boggled all over again.
These guys have some serious talent. That's all I have to say...
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
Damn... I totally want to get into cim's topics, I do, but I have to do another drive-by drop-off: Impromptu Celine Dion. You guys, they are such a f***ing BAND! I know I am not the only person on this thread who is over the moon at the sight & sound of these boys breaking into the Titanic theme song at the spur of the moment, in unison! MUSIC NERD SQUEEEEEEE!!!! (In C-sharp).
Now back to your regularly scheduled music nerdery: Yak, as far as I know, there's no difference between C-sharp and D-flat unless you're writing it down. Maybe some of them think in C# and some think in Db? Also, they seem to pretty consistently tune their guitars down 1/2 step, so, if the song's really in C#, or Db, the guitars are playing it as if it were in D, which is a very friendly key for the guitar.
I'm thinking that MWK, as a band, created the Yo Arms arrangement. I'll bet that *someone* out there has a video of the MWK version collecting dust in their basement. I'm going to light a candle and pray that the Spirit descends upon them and tells them to put it on YouTube...
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
Yamina, aren't C# and Db the same thing, essentially? Or am I completely missing something?
We dropped it a full step into C sharp C-sharp? That key signature is tough - why not D-flat? Is C-sharp easier on guitar?
Posting again to bring over some fascinating info from this interview.
On singing Cutting Crew’s “(I Just Died) In Your Arms Tonight” during concerts: “We used to cover that in Tulsa. My rhythm guitarist was the lead singer. We were talking about messing around with it during a break before the second leg of the tour in June. We dropped it a full step into C sharp. It fit my voice. We were able to do our own thing… People may not know who sang the song but everybody kind of knows the song. It’s cool to us, something that transcends an age bracket. And it’s not something you expect to hear.”
So -- apparently this was an old MWK cover with Andy singing lead. The mind boggles. And of course, the question now remains on how the arrangement was developed, since it's, to my mind, more likely a collaborative effort, or not one of Cook's at all, than I have previously considered it.. Would that some pre-Idol fans from Tulsa could show up here and illuminate us all. Sigh.
Drive by music post: I have posted chords and some tab for acoustic Mr. Sensitive in a blog entry. I'll link it from the other chords blog, too. I submitted something like it to a tab website - will let you know if it gets posted there. Constructive criticism appreciated!
Cool -- Of course we could count on you, CYE!
Thanks for bringing the interview over for another reason -- I watched it again, and in it, DC talks about adding more piano-based music and riff-based guitar. He gives two examples of bands as well -- Injected (original writers of BBS) and Avenged Sevenfold.
So -- my next project, since I admittedly don't really know all that much about either of these bands, is to give them a good, hard listen, and see if I can figure out what he's talking about.
First stop: Injected.
There's a YT user named robcaamano who's handily put up a dozen or so live performances of theirs. They don't perform with a keyboardist, so I'm thinking this is a good example of the riffs DC's referring to. They're also pretty heavy rock -- BBS is pretty much par for them as far as weightiness goes -- but I wouldn't necessarily assume that this is also something DC is heading towards, much as it would be cool for a number of songs to be like that. (Warning -- the videos are of a live performance and there's a little profanity in some of the videos, for those who are concerned about such things.)
Here are the standouts, to my mind:
Genie Genie
This has got some amazing guitar work, in the intro alone (although you should listen to the whole song) and you can hear how it's related to BBS stylistically. Really like it; if this is the direction D's thinking of going in, I am so along for the ride. I'm really starting to see what he likes about this band because of this song.
Lie and Defy
Also, heavily riff-based, great guitar solo, definitely worth a listen.
Monday
Pretty cool countermelodies (guitar & vocal) in the chorus.
And finally, a comprehensive discography with 10-second clips of pretty much every song they've done.
Next up: Avenged Sevenfold, when time allows. I think The Script and Big Wreck have also been named elsewhere as cool piano rock, yes? Am I misremembering, and are there any others? I'd love to be able to speculate a little more intelligently about what we might see in the next album.
Friday, November 13, 2009 - 10:39
sylvanaire:
cimorene, I have no idea what article that reference was from, or when, even. Obviously sometime after the record dropped, but even with CYE's extensive interview archive, I wouldn't know where to look for it, so sorry about that. It was just that brief mention, he didn't elaborate, really.
As to the music discussion, as usual I've got nothing substantive to contribute. But I love reading your insights.
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Innocuous comments like that are how it starts. Then a year later your soul and free will are in a box in Cook's basement. (tm Wheeziev)
Everything Thread | Acoustic Dave Playlist
Oh, goodie - Baroque - now I get to listen for the millionth time with a new angle. Thanks, all!
Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:53
cimorene:
And minstrel, I agree with you about the Baroque feel of the Mr. S. instrumentation. I actually think that's present in some of the other songs on the album, even as performed with full band -- LOTM and Lie, in particular, contain these gorgeous delicate instrumental lines that -- LOTM in particular -- have always screamed "Baroque" at me.
Same here. When I first heard LOTM, I thought to myself: They could use a harpsichord instead of a keyboard and it would sound great. LOL!
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
Zarita, it's a style of music that was also prevalent at the same time as the architecture. Here's a wiki article about it. It's sort of characterized by heavily rhythmic, ornate and complicated melodic lines with a lot of countermelodies (multiple different melodies being played simultaneously).
J. S. Bach and Antonio Vivaldi are among the two most famous Baroque composers.
Here is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor -- listen to the part at 2:55 in particular, to see what I'm referring to with regards to the Baroque style I'm hearing in LOTM; and here, Winter from Vivaldi's Four Seasons.
Hope that helps. Baroque music happens to be my favorite Classical style; it's possible that I'm just attracted to the stylistic elements (the complex melodies and rhythm), which I also see DC's music has in common with it.
ETA: Corrected wiki link.
Can someone explain to me what you mean by "Baroque"? I've only heard of it in terms of architecture, and I kinda doubt that's what you mean.
But if that's what they're doing to Mr.S, I will not be opposed to them doing it more on DCTR2. A lot more. Like, every song more. Have I mentioned I adore acoustic Mr. S?
I don't know if it would be necessary to include THAT many more ballads to thin things out adequately... even one more might do the trick. Of course, I also think that the band's having stuck to the harder songs over the course of this tour was a strategic move as well... we'll see what happens next year after the new album comes out.
And minstrel, I agree with you about the Baroque feel of the Mr. S. instrumentation. I actually think that's present in some of the other songs on the album, even as performed with full band -- LOTM and Lie, in particular, contain these gorgeous delicate instrumental lines that -- LOTM in particular -- have always screamed "Baroque" at me.
(BTW, norman, I just caught up in this thread after 3 days, and it is entirely your fault that I want a steak right now and it's not even 11am. But I will forgive you because of this:
)
The music thread, one place where it's safe to say "I agree, David Cook tends to be a little thick in the middle."
Still LMAO.
My father the first-time-DC-concertgoer would agree with those of you who think there should be more ballads in David's sets. One of his only complaints about the AZ State Fair show was that it was too "hard rocking" and there weren't any songs to slow the pace down a bit. He didn't even think Lie was adequate enough. I think he would have preferred something like TWIK.
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
Thank you all for this wonderful thread. Now, I know that I want DCTR2 to be less thick. Not being a music person, I can't really judge MB. To me, it just seems like of wall of sound with David trying to yell/sing over that wall. I think one of the reasons I like some of the Axium songs like Close Your Eyes, Just In Case and Hold, is because I can hear David's voice. When I'm alone, I love to play Permanent so loud that everything in my car vibrates. I love the instrumentation and how it showcases the voice.
At several concerts I've attended, the band over powered David's voice. When all the songs are at a similar tempo, they seem to blend into a great wall of sound. I agree with YaminaC that there needs to be more "ballad cleansers" during concerts. I love it when MITB is thrown in, because it adds variety and showcases the voice. Obviously, this issue has not kept me from attending as many DC and TA concerts as possible. I just think variety would be more appealing to the not yet Cookified.
I love the acoustic performances. I get to hear the voice, and Neal's guitar skills blow me away. As I have learned from you all, I don't care if live performances or DCTR2 gets edgier, I just want more variety and delicacy of instrumentation.
redona - I haven't poked my head in over here in a while. Was just kinda lurking through ya'll's (yes, that's a verifiable word in my part of the world) posts.....and I saw you brought up the link to the Frisson lecture. Which made me smile.
Because I've thought about the principles on that lecture more than once in the last week. Not only as I analyze MB, but also as I've been listening to Switchfoot's new album, "Hello Hurricaine"....which is a massive tutorial in-and-of-itself, in both musical texture and variety of style. It's a veritable sound smorgasbord.....
Jon comes close on "Sing It Out" (side note - incredible use of the opposite of the wall of sound - Jon's vocals overlying a deep, deep bass countermelody line, that sounds like a mix of low pipe organ, cello, and string bass, with a conspicuously absent 'middle'.)
Ok. Back to attempting to make some articulate point.
I really wanted to make a comment about MB. The chorus is really good. The words, as you mentioned below, fit the music. They are poetic and really effectively multi-layered in contextual possibilities that have kept me thinking for days. The musical hook is good (it's been in my head for three days now) and the chord progression is lovely in that same gahahaha kinda of way. The verses, I find a bit inaccessible lyrically, and the melody feels pieced to me from so many prior known works - which I suppose is not a bad thing, if you're attempting a cross-over song to bridge AH to Now.....but for me, the chorus is sublime.
I'm looking forward to hearing the progression on this one.
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-Unwritten, Unsung, Unseen
I also like MB and completely agree with PeachMango. I was thinking the same thought that although it has a very similar sound to AH, the vast majority of the public has never heard it so for them it would be a new sound compared to TOML, LO and CBTM.
I am so looking forward to the new record. I hope he kills because he is capable of it.
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Absurdity is afoot....
jessicaanne - Yes, I have been a huge CC fan since their very first single, Mr Jones. Recovering the Satellites is wonderful.
And, btw, just talking about how music makes you feel and react is all that is needed, so please don't stop.
jayelgee1- It's funny the Counting Crows came up in 2 different threads (the Marketing one) the same day. They are one of my favorite all-time bands. I do like the contrast of Saturday Nights and Sunday mornings. P.S. I do like Saturday Nights and Sunday mornings, but I think Recovering the Satellites is one of the best albums on the planet. You should check it out if you haven't. I have never been on this thread because I can't speak about music very intelligently, I just know what I like. I LOVE the Counting Crows and David Cook!
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Me: Have fun in Fargo! I used to live there
Dave: Really, I can't tell! You don't have an accent! Or is that movie just bull?
Me: Yeah, it is just bull! (Swoons)
Jessica
min - Precisely. And I think it is always more dramatic and exciting when a band that usually plays heavy stuff cuts away into more lyrical melody or even alludes to folk or, as you suggest, baroque etc genres.
For example, having never before listened to a whole Pearl Jam record, I am on my third listen to
"Back Spacer." The first two songs give the headbangers what they expect. And then the album begins to transition to almost fingerpicked plaintive melody and lyric with almost Counting Crows sounding rock sound with some back and forth of these styles to completion. The contrast of the heavy with the lyrical is very interesting and draws in someone like me who is not one of their traditional fans.
Counting Crows themselves did a similar contrast of styles on "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning," with the "Sunday Morning" part of the album very folkish, acoustic and fingerpicked. Quite a beautiful album from start to finish.
Adam Duritz is himself an incredible singer, and so I can imagine the kind of impact that kind of flow would have if David chose to arrange an album where he contrasts his powersinging with his more lyrical abilities. And that would give Neal the platform to use those beautiful chops we hear from time to time when they play acoustic.
Andy could even pick up a 12-string acoustic if the mood strikes.
Neal is capable of work of great delicacy. But what they're doing right now doesn't showcase it very much. when he plays acoustic, the skill becomes apparent -- the fact that the man can do way more than just shred the hell out of an axe.
the Mr. S from that Phoenix radio appearance is a revelation; it's almost baroque,what he is doing there in the countermelody, which i pointed out earlier. I have a feeling he would also be capable of doing some mind-blowing work that is way, way more stripped down than has been typical on the tewer and on DCTR.
and just for the record? I like MB as a composition better than Souvenir, as mentioned before, and probably by a bigger margin than originally stated.
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I laugh at myself while the tears roll down....
redana, I don't know when Andy started using the acoustic guitar on Lie, but I know he's been doing it at least since the tour started back up after the October break. He used it in Phoenix, and I remember wondering to myself if he had ever used it before.
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Rolling Out Across the Desert Word Hero #293
"If I was in a band competing with Andy, I'd quit." -- Neal Tiemann
The music thread, one place where it's safe to say "I agree, David Cook tends to be a little thick in the middle."
A while ago there was a YT video of Cook describing the riff that became 'Straight Ahead.' And I was all like, there's a riff in Straight Ahead??? And, yeah, once you know it's there, you can hear it, but it's not exactly what defines the song, is it? What defines the song is that thick-in-the-middle sound you guys are describing - rhythm guitars hammering away with that straight eighth-note rhythm. When I think of riff-based rock, I think more of songs like, say, "Sunday Bloody Sunday," where, when you think of the song, you hear the riff; where the guitar riffs and the vocalist's melody line echo one another, to some degree. MWK's "Song to Me" from the Incoherent EP - the album Cook was involved with recording, I believe - is a perfect example of that kind of riff-based song where the riff, and the melody, stick in your head.
One idea I've been toying with is that maybe there'll be less "wall of sound" if he manages to record the next record with the Anthemic's current lineup, and, particularly, if the Anthemicals are involved in writing the music. I wonder if we'll hear more distinct contributions from other instruments - drums, lead guitars, piano, bass - and if that will help to thin out the stuff in the middle. I love stew as much as the next fan, but, the thing about stew is, in the end it doesn't really matter if the beef's been in the freezer for three months, or the potatoes are starting to sprout, or the carrots are soggy. But, when you're starting with locally raised grass-fed tenderloin, new red potatoes, and baby purple and yellow heirloom carrots, maybe you're more likely to serve them as separate courses so each can be appreciated on its own plentiful merits.
How's that for torturing the hell out of a metaphor? Anyone else hungry? (Oops, sorry, cimorene)
Speaking of more sparse arrangements... when did Andy start playing acoustic guitar on Lie? Of course I could be wrong, but in this Lie from Wednesday's show it looks suspiciously like he's wielding the acoustic guitar. He may have been using it for that song for ages, and I just haven't noticed because the videographers usually focus on Dave, so I'm curious of anybody's noticed it earlier? And Dave is back to the black guitar for that song, which I can't remember seeing him use for it in ages, though I feel like he did it in the beginning of the tour? I honestly can't remember anymore. Somebody ought to write down a list of which guitar he's used on which songs, and when! LOL
cimorene, I have no idea what article that reference was from, or when, even. Obviously sometime after the record dropped, but even with CYE's extensive interview archive, I wouldn't know where to look for it, so sorry about that. It was just that brief mention, he didn't elaborate, really.
Ah, I see what you're saying about the two songs now. Okay, in that sense you're right, I wasn't looking at it from that angle, thank you for clearing that up! *smiles*
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~You are love, you are life, you are Peace of Mind~
PeachMango - Very well put. Having now listened to MB quite a few times, I like it even more than I did at first - and I liked it right away. But one thing I have learned about new music - of any artist's, it takes a few listens to get oriented to where the artist is and is going to get into new songs. MB is very good for all the reasons you said - melody, hooks, lyrics, chord structures etc. My only wish is that during the two or so measures between phrases that Andy and Neal did vocal fills. It would add depth and interest to the peformance and production values.
You are absolutely right in pointing out that outside of the hardcore fanbase and very interested others who have been to many shows and watched many vids, the general audience would hear MB as a song standing alone. They would not know AH and probably never will and , if never recorded for release, will never know Souvenir (which I totally love) and Only Honest ( also totally love).
However, artists do have signature sounds. If this is David's signature sound, then he will return to it in variations; or he may transition out of it.
I believe it was me who hoped that Neal expand his repertoire into more subtle and riff-based leads. David said the same in the Examiner article, in that he himself is looking for more riff-based song structure as the new songs get written.
sylvanaire, with regards to the interview, I'd never read it -- would love it if you could find the source -- but that makes a lot of sense to me, and frankly, I'd always suspected that that was the case anyway. I'm sure that the decision for the cowrites was a multifaceted one, and that several things were at play. It's possible the label wanted to do it, and/or it's possible he realized it was a pragmatic decision, and maybe they met in the middle with the cowrites. Either way, even if it was his idea based on the time constraints, I doubt the label balked at the suggestion, kwim?
As for BBS and KOTN being cowrites in the same vein, I"ll try to be clearer, as you're right that what I wrote is a bit confusing. I think what I'm getting at is that these were slightly more organic, in a way -- these were cowrites that might've been possible even without the label, even without his having been on the show. The cowriters involved were all people he knew from before. As such, even if the label *had* been the one pushing for the cowrites, these cowrites were done not with David as the new artist who wants to learn from the seasoned professional (by this I mean as having reputation with the label, not necessarily more experience), but rather as songs written between peers, with David as the one with a potentially higher reputation at the label than the other cowriters (Neal's experience with Burn Halo notwithstanding). Does that make any sense?
So when I first heard MB, I think I was a wee bit disappointed -- not because I didn't like the song (I do, please see below) -- but mainly because it was so very very similar to Souvenir and Straight Ahead in vibe, rhythm and feel. Unlike minstrel, I like MB a WHOLE LOT more than Souvenir -- which I really thought was a good song but kinda boring. (In fact, the performance that finally sold me on the song was one where his vocals were muted and the lovely instrumentation came through -- which in Cook fandom is kinda WTF, right?)
Anyway, IMO MB is waaaaay more hooky and just overall just a beautiful tune. Love the melody, love the verses, etc., etc. It's just way more ready for prime time IMO.
Now as to the similarity to Souvenier and Straight Ahead, I think I would only be disappointed if those songs ALSO made DCTR2 along with MB. At this point, when you think about it, only the hardcore fans have really heard of Souvenir, Straight Ahead and even WOHWWS (which also has some similarity to to MB but less so). Therefore, for the rest of his fans, MB would represent something somewhat different than what has come before -- that is, what was on DCTR.. Now, if Souvenir and Straight Ahead also made DCTR2, then we get into the repetitive bit which I would find very disappointing on the album, and opens DC even more to the not infrequent criticism we heard on DCTR that the songs sounded kind of the same (which I frankly blamed on the production and not the songwriting).
Now, all that said, I'm not really in need of more angsty, you broke my heart songs of this nature on DCTR2 other than this one gem (MB). After this, I'm all for Cook really showing his hardcore fanbase REAL progression with the sparser instrumentation, more uptempo songs and generally songs similar to my top tier of Declaration Tour setlist (Declaration, KOTN, Anodyne, Mr. S, TIB, LO (hey, I fell in love with it again, ok?).
Oh and finally, yes to whoever suggested that Neal should explore more subtle solos (not that there's anything wrong with what he's doing now), just for the variety.