Fascinating thread! I found this just yesterday and have read only last three paiges and learned more than I could imagine. I`ve been fascinated of The Voice since the beginning of AI7. Now after reading your insightful analysis of David`s unique voice I want to know even more! .... This is just great! Thank you, cimorene for starting this thread!
I`ll keep reading, have to start from the beginning!

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Sophisticated and Sensual David - Live Performances: VIDEO LIBRARIES 1 & 2

I am definitely not a musician or lyricist, but for me, Avalanche is a love song....it just always was, from the first time it graced my ears......it seems like it is more of a new love, whereas Heroes is much more upbeat and seems more permanent......but Avalanche, wow, that for me is also a love song....yes, there is some uncertainty, etc., but the raw emotion......OMG!

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karen "would you sing my song at the top of your lungs..."

As I've said before on other parts here, mainly dwop, I'm not good with lyrics and interpretation. I more take how a song makes me feel and interpret it that way than to look deeply into the lyrics. That said, I love it when everyone else brings that skill to the table and can enlighten me so thank you. So my meager offerings to the current subject are these: Although David has not written a love song per se he did say that the theme of the record is love amidst distance and also in another interview said something like all the songs he's written basically have something to do with a girl. So taking that into consideration aren't they all love songs on some level even if they are not really the "wedding song first dance" level of obvious love in the lyrics?

Also, I don't know that we ever found out for sure that David did not write the lyrics to Avalanche. I don't recall hearing anything like that.

Answer your question from way down this thread:

"seamom:
Squirrelly, I'm impressed! An F above high C? Were you trained in opera? You must have had years of training along with a God-given talent."

No, at that time I had very little training except for the teachers at school. I was able to sing along with the opera singers on the records that my brother brought home for me...I tried and was able to hit all the notes. (Not anymore, though.) I was offered training by an opera singer who visited our school, but I didn't take her up on it. I was living by myself when I was 17, and going to school, and working and didn't have my mind on being an opera singer. I missed a bunch of opportunities back then, I guess. They didn't have American Idol back then, and with the conditions I was born in, I might as well have been born in excrement. My mom made me attend all of my brother's piano recitals (very long and boring, but I did need to be there for him). I absolutely received no encouragement from my family (except my brother bringing home opera records). My mom never attended (to my memory) any of my concerts that I was allowed to sing solos for, including when I was in high school. At one time, they even got elementary school kids to back me up on Carpenter's "Sing, Sing a Song" -- I remember the feeling of "here I am up here singing a solo, and no one in my family is even in the audience". Strange family I had. I eventually quit singing in school programs.

Can't live in the past, though. I'm more supportive of my daughter, and she never had to deal with that problem.

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Squirrellygirl

This is an amazing thread and I nominate it to be pinned under CJT. Thank you for starting it Cimorene.

I can't talk music, I feel it but can't describe it, but as I read all your posts, I find myself learning, understanding, nodding and mostly enjoying every one of them. I've been checking this thread out even before CJT and DWoP, as if I had nothing else to do!

YaminaC, who knew yaks were so musically... something, don't know what... brilliant?

MsDarcy, your Pemanent description was beautiful, I just had to listen to it again, and you are so right!

Anyway, carry on music people, I'll be lurking around.

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Ding!

AngelaT - are you kidding me? Do I need to completely rethink this song? *hangs head in shame* guess I should have checked the lyrics link - Day-um.

yaminac
These arrangements, where the listener is taken from point A to point B to point C, seem so rare compared to the repetitive riff-based songs which are so popular right now. Its a big reason I feel so passionate about David's music - his arrangements are like mini dramas

I completely agree with this point. This is what I love about so much of David's music and also in his lyrics. I hear it in so many songs even from back in his Axium days. Where I see it quite cleary in his current music is in KOTN... where it starts out with "I can say, you were lost when you walked into the room.. we can win you over, with just a kiss on the neck and moves through the story until it is "You can say, I was lost when I walked into the room....You can win me over with just a kiss on the neck".

I am not musically knowledgeable but writing, storytelling, lyrics, peformance is what I know and love. And David's lyrics have always fascinated me. I have considered that perhaps his background in musical theatre and the "storytelling" that takes place in musical theatre songs may have helped him with this aspect of his writing. He would have developed an ear for the way the storyline progresses in a song, and how many musicals use the same "music" as the core of many songs in the show.Many times the song is just arranged differently or in a lot of cases the songs/lyrics change over time in the show to reflect the "progression" of the story line.

p.s. capt cha I've had enough of you today! GMFWC to you too!

I also want to comment on the "love song" topic: I had noticed this myself recently, as I have been a bit obsessed with some of David's most sensual or "romantic" performances like "Lie" and ever obsessed with Permanent and Anodyne as each of these is such a strong emotional performance. I started to realize there are no songs where David actually says "I love you" etc...And actually spent some time last week going through his songs and lyrics to determine if I was accurate. We know that Permanent is his lullaby/love song to Adam and he juxtaposed the concepts of temporary and permanent with each other to show he "will always be there" for his brother.

With regard to Lie, someone (here or on DWOP, not sure) gave a great description of Lie very recently as an "edge of the bed" talk (wow such a great image). I actually see Andy's "Better Day" as the companion piece to Lie. It's the perspective of "the other person" who has some secrets to share but is choosing not to, for the time being, to keep the relationship alive.

I tend to agree with minstrel et al (citation geek moment to reflect that others have also expressed this point but not lising all their names ) in the idea that David will write a love song when he is experiencing it. Piece of Mind and Still are certainly in that direction, and as for Avalanche Taylor Sue I do see it as a romantic song, but David was not the sole writer for the lyrics (to my knowledge) and so for me it doesn't have the same power of a love song when it isn't perhaps written out of his own experience (which is my assumption). David says he writes universal themes and writes what he knows (like any good writer) and the day will come when he will write a "permanent like" ode to his love and we'll all be wishing it was us!!

I just want to say how much I love this thread (said it before, keep on saying it). I love the positive discussions about David's music, lyrics, talent. and feel like I am learning so much from everyone here. And for the fact that I actually have somewhere to discuss all this important David stuff cos no one at home wants to hear it !!

With just a kiss on the neck

OK - you all are getting into that PB world and I told you - I'm too shallow!

I think, in part, the choices to release LO and CBTM as the first singles reflect RCA's attempt to capitalize on the appeal of both the "primal scream" and the "romantic" Dave. Yet, some of us feel as though the full appeal of Dave has yet to be revealed to the world. Not only has the selection of these singles discounted Dave's ability as a songwriter, but the actual compositions themselves are not particularly interesting - both, despite David's attempts to vary the vocal nuances through volume and color, pretty much maintain the same emotional palate all the way through on the recordings. A bit surprising, considering his musical selections on Idol were so imaginative. I am so, so curious to see RCA's next single choice (inevitably Dave's songwriting at last) and its reception with the general audience at large. Will it "wow" the world or will most people be unable to appreciate the fullness of the remaining works?

Re "love songs" - just my personal taste, but a HUGE appeal for me is that the lyrics on DCTR, AH and even THH and MWK focus on aspects of various relationships OTHER than traditional romance of the pure "I love you" or "You left me - I'm killing myself!"

ETA: Taylor_Sue - I forgot about Avalanche, although I venture to say even this is not a "traditional" love song - love the surprise of "all at once I am alone again" - despite the passion, a separation still exists.

lovethemusic - I hear yah, but someday , through his own growth and life experience, an "I love you" song may develop. It may take a while, but even Dylan sings "I love you."

And, LTM, very good points about this journey towards the next body of work. I can't wait for "the shock." I have never felt so "impatient" with any artist before to see what is coming next. With David, I just want to see/hear more, more, more because I anticipate another journey of discovery.

JLG, so funny.... we were writing the same thoughts at about the same time. Crazy.

As to whether D's love songs would be cheesy? Maybe if he tried now, they would be. Some folks have to feel it to write it, kwim? When the time comes, he'll be able to do it. ("Peace of Mind"' is not cheesy. Neither is "Still.") But if you try to force it when it's not really something you're burning to write about? Then maybe, yeah, that's hard. Sara Bareilles certainly thinks so... "(I'm Not Gonna Write You A) Love Song" is about that very subject... her response to management's request that one should be written.

But it's interesting that D's also not chosen to cover anybody ELSE's love songs.

It is not that he would be incapable of slaying us, with these things. It's that .... this is not what currently interests him, apparently. Musically or existentially. He's working other themes, kwim? (And considering all he's discovered re the effectiveness of "naked in church?" I do not expect him to be in a big rush to go there, for a while, regarding the forever&ever type of love. Lust, ecstasy, obsession, betrayal, dishonesty, abandonment, loss... he's all over that stuff. The other, not so much... other than the steadfast love you get from your friends/family.)

But, no worries. When the time comes? My money's on his ability to deliver the goods. (Andy, OTOH, is capable of writing quite effective, sincere love songs and is more interested in doing it... "Better Day," "Don't Give Up on Us" and "Forever," from the THH EP, for example.... but his style's his own, and pretty different from the songwriting done by both David and Neal.)

eta (which means, edited to add)... lovethemusic... i think people could definitely cover dave's material. they would not sound like dave. it would be better not to try. but if it's strong material? there is no reason why someone else might not want to try it. D would make some cash, that way. And... he is sui generis, but he is not the only artist in the world with interpretive talent. "Lie" would be a strong piece of work in anybody's hands; Nick Gibson's version was pretty effective, in the country mode, for instance. "CBTM" could be sung by any number of people. "Avalanche" ditto (acoustic, that could be really cool, I think). "The Truth." He's written a ton of good stuff, and it would be less than a compliment to him, to presume that only he can sing it. But it would take someone smart enough not to try to be a daveClone. Actually... to hear a female artist do some of this, would be very cool, because that would circumvent the problem, to a degree.

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I laugh at myself while the tears roll down....

Thanks to everyone who spends time telling the rest of us ,who know very little technically about music, what we are experiencing. My initial draw to David on Idol was because I could understand the lyrics. As the season went on, I found that his tone, emotion, and word emphasis made each song more interesting. When I found Analog Heart I couldn't believe that I got all this along with an emotional journey from his own work. His music makes me feel that I can almost look into his soul (Permanent, Lie, Life on the Moon, ADAM).

He mentioned that when they put out the next record it will be different (progression). I don't think it will be a shock because of what has been happening during the tour. I noticed a change in how the songs are done, the emotion and the arrangements of the songs from my first concert in Feb. to the last one in July. I feel like he has been taking us through his personal musical progression and by the time the second record is out we will be there with him. I can't get tired of hearing the songs live because he never conveys the song the same way twice. I have taped three concerts on an mp3 voice recorder which takes out a lot of the background noise. I can hear so many little differences in endings, holding of a phrase or changes in small musical parts. His success with covers on Idol and in concert comes from his gift of telling a story, releasing his passion, and his unique voice quality.

Thanks for helping me see that something that seems so effortless is so complex. What are some thoughts on others trying to cover (wow moments) David's songs?

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"I try really hard not to put people into boxes" David Cook

Yes, re the arrangements. This is why I don't like stuff too glossy (a la some of DCTR) and why I much prefer what I've seen from the tewer, in terms of the evolution of the material, live.

Cases in point.... the beautiful nuances of the acoustic LOTM (Sirius) and Mr. Sensitive (recent radio appearance).... this is not just making lemonade out of the "lemon" of not having the whole band available... this is making champagne out of it.

Dave's been messing with arrangments for a good bit, though.... when you look at what he did on AH vs the early Axium things, there is no comparison. The raw talent was always there, but he's learned a lot about not only how to exploit his vocal gift but also how to arrange material in a more subtle way, for a more varied emotional impact. (Rather than a sort of one-note "i'm mad, i'm hurt, etc")

I find it fun to look at the arc, for instance, in the way "Truth is a Gun" is arranged (Alive in Tulsa @ the Venue) .... with that percussive guitar driving the whole opening statement.... It's like firing bullets, frankly... underneath D's rant. But then it's pulled way back at 2:02 so it's mostly acapella, with just these little guitar stings before the insistent riff takes over again. This provides a great sense of pent-up energy. In the end it just becomes full-blown rant, supported by guitar and drums. (And to me, it's sort of a ..... boring song, and I think it's testimony to the power of the arrangement, that I still find it fairly interesting to listen to.) .... also just as an aside... the Blindsided version of this is in a higher key than the live version. (no one shd be surprised by this, by now.)

Now, if you listen to "Porcelain," you can hear some of the same arranging tactics at work, in terms of how the percussiveness of the bass and guitar drive the material forward. Here, though, there's a much more interesting (to me) contrast between the fundamentally lyrical treatment of the voice part (esp in the choruses, where he is also harmonizing w/himself) vs the often-staccato treatment in the instrumental parts. At 2:18 the whole thing almost comes to a halt where it goes off into a sort of dreamy guitar solo.... so you get the idea that maybe the singer is calming down a little. But it's just a tease, because at 2:39 the drums start to build, the guitar gets more screechy and insistent (and distorted), there's an impending sense of chaos until the chorus part returns in this huge dramatic statement. And the whole thing ends on a high, wailed repetition ("a heart of glass") and an unresolved chord.

As incipit noted below... D's gotten quite good at explicating, musically, the theme of obsession (i.e. the kind of love that is unhealthy but hard to let go). DIYA, to me, is just another iteration of that theme.... and it is fascinating how D did NOT write that material, but selected it and has messed around with it until it becomes something that is all-of-a-piece with "Porcelain."

What he'd do with a song about real love, between a guy and a girl, ya gotta wonder, huh? It's been a very long time since "Peace of Mind." (Though "Permanent" might provide some clues, because certainly that is about real love, also.)

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I laugh at myself while the tears roll down....

cimorene - Your thoughts about the "heresy" someday of covers of David's songs reminds me of the impact his ER had on me. I thought that there could be no one but Paul who could sing that song. After all, it was a solo work of Paul's and he sang it so beautfifully and dramatically.

But David made that song soar even more. He used that "primal scream" to make us feel evern more anguished at "all the lonely people, where do they all come from."

When David reaches deep in, takes that breath and lets go with those gut wrenching peak notes, there is just noone out there now except him who does that.

In the CBTM vid, just before the escalator scene, when he actually bends forward and down to get physically ready to belt "come back to me," he produces that primal scream par excellance.

Cimorene, this:

Maybe some of my understanding of this is a reaction to the primal scream found in all of these songs (although maybe not DIYA); certainly it provokes a similar response among them all.

Is, in my opinion, very present in DIYA...because David changed the words. The original was "I shoud've walked away", sung with no particular special emphasis. He only uses that line twice...the rest of the time it's I couldn't walk away, and the line is not only wailed, it's repeated with emphasis.

Downthread on June 22nd I posted about it after the first performance of the cover, how different the focus appears with 'couldn't' replacing 'should've'. It changes the leit motif of the whole song, IMO. "and now the music matches the anger and confusion of the words, it didn't before...."

Also, could that other sound that David emulated early in his singing career that you were trying to think of be Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam? We know Adam gave him Pearl Jam's "Ten" and that he loves the record, also, he sang both Chris Cornell's and Eddie Vedder's parts in "Hunger Strike".

♫♪♫
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-Incipit9 - Irrationally 0sup2;

"Expect the Unexpected." tm WTF!Cook

Yak, I floved your post about Declaration. Stuff like that, exploring how the music correlates to and and expands on the lyrical themes, is fascinating to me. And it reminded me that back when Cimorene first started this thread, someone raised the question of what it is about Permanent that makes it so special; I was busy with RL at the time and never got around to posting my thoughts then so I'm going to jump in now.

DC has called Permanent a lullaby for his brother; a lullaby, meant to convey comfort, rest, reassurance, peace. The instrumentation throughout, I think, fits that description: simple strings and piano, it's delicate, quiet, almost unobtrusive - by itself it could almost lull you to sleep. The lyrics, too, ultimately convey a message of reassurance: "Despite your worries, you can rest your head - I'm permanent."

But then we have that voice. And the dynamic and vocal choices he makes are far from what you'd expect in a lulllaby. The first verse is relatively quiet, but still not the hushed, honeyed tone and sweet falsetto we hear in, say, the opening of Avalanche. There's already a rasp there and a quaver that conveys doubt and uncertainty. And then he hits the chorus, and there's nothing quiet or soothing about it. He is absolutely belting out most of those lyrics, holding nothing back, and even when the words are reassuring, that voice is absolutely drenched in the overwhelming anguish of impending loss, pain, helplessness. The first time I heard it I felt like he was standing inches away from me, or singing directly into my brain; it's gut-wrenching.

For me, it's that contrast - those two completely different but equally heartfelt emotional messages, co-existing throughout the same song - that makes Permanent so unique. It really is an amazing piece of work and I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like it, or ever will again.

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Declaration Tour iTunes artwork
Snark For The Cure

Cimorene, thanks so much for explaining. I remember growing up that High C was the Holy Grail for singers. It must be a (relatively) more recent development to go into the "whistle register".
Regarding Axiom songs, I always felt David was trying to channel his inner James Hetfield (Metallica). Since they were one of the ultimate rock bands of the 90s, it makes sense to me (YMMV)!

SybilT's avi (thud) inspires me to share how much I love, love love Declaration and have a flicker of hope remaining that it will get released as a single. The lyrics and the music are perfect complements to each other. Its so brash, bold and honest and such a straightforward communication between David and us, the listeners. I love how it starts relatively quietly, as if sharing something intimate, then the drums start beating underneath like a heart beat - look out! he's ready to burst! - and the fierce bravado and release of "Its my DEC-laration!" Even the clapping interlude in live performances gives us the chance to respond back (with approval, of course - Yes! Yes! Yes!). The octave jump between bridge and chorus (which runs thru a lot of the DCTR songs) seems particularly effective here, almost like he shared too much (will I ever be enough?) and needs to pull back. But he believes it heart and soul and up it builds again.

(I'm doing this from memory since d*mned work firewall is the instrument of the devil as it refuses to play music.)

Squirrelly, I'm impressed! An F above high C? Were you trained in opera? You must have had years of training along with a God-given talent.
On a side note, can anyone explain to me the statements about Mariah Carey's range? I've heard something to the effect that she has a 10-11 octave range. Now, I only took 5 years of piano as a child, but the skeptic in me finds it hard to believe she could hit the full spectrum of notes on a piano. Can someone enlighten me? Thanks!

The more I read about producing vocal harmonics (and I've been doing an obscene amount of it) is that a sung pitch produces a normal patttern of harmonics which blends together and the ear hears the just the fundamental note. When you hear one dominant overtone as well as the fundamental note, the singer has made some sort of physical constriction that suppresses or weakens the other harmonic frequencies in the natural pattern, making one harmonic more dominant and heard separately. Maybe its the scrunchy face on high notes that produces this phenomenon?

Post-hoing to check out a new avi.

ETA: I flipped for the full size picture, but I think the avi is too small to do justice to the pretty. What do you think?

I promise my next post will be about the music.

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Professor T holds the Hello Chair in Arm Porn Studies at WTFU

I used to could do a scream so high pitched that it sounded like a whistle. When I discovered I could do this as a kid, I would put my pinky fingers in my mouth like people do when they whistle and make people think my scream was a whistle. I haven't tried it in years for fear of hurting my vocal cords.

As a singer I have experienced a harmonic overtone when singing in a group. I used to sing with a group of about 8 women and on some of the songs we sang, the haromnies were so tight and our voices blended so well, you could hear a harmonic overtone an octive above what we where singing. Until Dave sang that note on STTL, that was the only time I had heard one.

I would love to have someone interview him about his voice.

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“I’m learning to be self-sufficient with food.” (tm Dave)
Has he mastered Bacon, yet? Hopefully he won't set the Teal Drapes on fire by accident.

Welcome SybilT! I look forward to your joining us in whatever we're talking about (even if you just join me in being confused over the guitar posts -- we pianists need to stick together) when you've caught up.

This thread has become my new obsession - mind if I am philosophical for a moment? I imagine a teenaged David hating his head and upset that his muscles just don't allow him to be fast as he'd like. These very things help make him the great singer he is. That which made him different made him special. Now if only I could find a reason for my big rear end.

YaminaC While I dig the idea that David is participating in Tibetan throat singing (hee - I am a Himalayan Yak after all), what I believe is happening is David raises his palate (the upper back of the throat) and flattens out his tongue, creating an optimum amount of space to resonate. The tone rings through his big ole head (said affectionately) without getting pushed into his teeny nose. The sound waves aren't blocked.

Yak, if only I had found you earlier! I can't believe you are actually talking about head cavities and the way sounds resonate in the Massive Alien Skull (also said affectionately). I have been wondering for at least a year whether the unusual size and shape of his head (and as someone who has tried to photoshop him for kicks into various hats, helmets, borg collectives etc., I can testify that it is very unusual) is a key component of his awesome singing voice; I even did some cursory research but couldn't find anything very informative so I felt stupid asking about it. And now here it is, right out in the open.

Have I told you all lately that I love this thread?

Cimorene, David has said he's had no formal voice lessons, which I took to mean one-on-one lessons with an instructor. As you say, he obviously had some training on AI and in musical theater.

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Declaration Tour iTunes artwork
Snark For The Cure