LET'S TALK SINGLES: Past, present, future.
Joined: Nov 2008
Rome, NY
Friday, October 9, 2009 - 19:11
LET'S TALK SINGLES: Past, present, future.
Here's a place where I'd love to discuss SINGLES. Any and all. Discuss the facts, speculation, ponies. Whatever floats your boat. All thoughts, views and opinions welcome. I ask only that we play nice. David would like that.
Comments for this Forum Topic
Lie needs to be released as a single!
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wordnerd #3370 - Cookie Paige
I think they are missing a wonderful chance to launch Lie as a single. It has been a favorite on the road and releasing it right after the Carrie Underwood special would give it the extra publicity it needed. I think many radio stations would pick up on it and I really believe it has the appeal to a wide range of people. If anybody should know a hit single it is Carrie Underwood and that song is her favorite. It would also keep David's name in circulation when he is off the road writing and recording a new CD.
Thanks for the thoughts Scott but I have to disagree with a couple points. First, I'm not convinced the record cycle lasted shorter than was anticipated. I believe the never ending tour kept getting extended due to extended record cycle. David said at one point the tour would continue in the new year if things kept going the way they were with the singles and album sales. Yes, concert sales being as good as they were helped keep the tour afloat but David also had a record to promote that lasted in the Billboard top 200, and really top 100 for most of its life. I went into it a year ago thinking DCTR was going to get 3 singles so for me to not get one after CBTM is a mild disappointment, not a grand travesty. Yes, I think a song like Declaration or Lie would have showcased more of David's artistry and sound, I do not disagree with that and that a better choice would have been made. But LO and CBTM both lasted a very long time on the charts. It is not a given for any song to get to recurrency and get played indefinitely on a format like all 3 of David's singles have gotten. So maybe the 2 very long lived singles from DCTR made it look like the record cycle got cut short but 2 years between albums seems about the right pacing to me. Sure they may have wanted to get a third mainstream single off of DCTR but better to have radio really ready for the lead single from the new album.
Also, I am not entirely convinced ANY follow up single to LO would have done better on CHR. I've been following CHR like a hawk with all artists follow up singles, especially the more rock and alternative leaning artists and they absolutely do not get traction. Many artists such as Killers, Fall Out Boy, Shinedown, Saving Abel, Theory of a Deadman, ect and all their follow up singles do not smash on CHR. I think with the lead single from DCTR2 they will go for CHR becuase they tend to give a lot more love to lead singles but subsequent singles I'm not expecting much. Yes, CHR is nice for sales and an exposure standpoint but the problem if you have a giant hit there your music must have to fit in that box for the rest of your career. If David can make the music he wants to make and get some decent but not smash CHR play then I think he will be fine. I don't think RCA is gunning for a CHR smash, because then they would not be branding him as a rock artists, a musican and a songwriter. It is a trade off and one that I'm willing to accept.
I wouldn't call CBTM' radio performance "fair". I'm not sure where that perception comes from. No it did not chart as high on CHR as LO did but it hit the same level on Hot AC that LO did. The only reason why it did not crack the top 5 is because the songs this summer on Hot AC were very popular and got spun some of the highest numbers of the year and all time, in short, there was a lot of competition. LO and CBTM had basically the same peak spin levels. So not as big as LO, fine if you want to take CHR into account but having a top 10 hit on Hot AC and reaching recurrency is not fair in my book.
I think you're right on track here Scott.
I have always suspected that LO and CBTM were planned as singles from the get go.
I don't know how these things work, but I wonder if there may have been some kind of contractual agreement with the co-writers, that the songs would be released as singles no matter what.
I also think that maybe the label liked what they heard from the David/Neal collaborations, i.e. KOTN, and felt that songs with that "vibe" might do better than the rest of the tracks on DCTR.
I still trust David and those involved with managing his career and music. David is smart, and I believe he knows which advice to listen to, and when to speak up when he sees a better path. He and his people have the experience and access to information none of the rest of us do.
I've said this from the very beginning, I and none of the rest of us here are experts in the business, if we had all the answers and/or the magic formula, we would be running things. We know what we like, and we don't always agree on that, but as far as I can tell, David is content with the way things are going, and I am not going to question that.
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I agree with you Scott....I know that surveys were done and as disappointed as I am that "Lie" was never a single, do think a decision was made to wait for the next CD. I stated my opinion a few weeks ago that another single would be a sure fire HAC hit, but do think they may be aiming for the next single to be a hit on CHR.
Bumping up this thread with a post. Something I've been thinking about concerning RCA, the singles,etc.
First, there's always a chance that RCA really dropped the ball. I think there's a slim chance they're neglecting David, but for all intents and purposes, DCTR's cycle ran out much earlier than we wanted, predicted, or deem logical, and I choose to believe that may be due to some bad choices (based on research that didn't bear fruit, rather than neglect or intent).
To that end, here's my "benefit of the doubt" post that suggests RCA may be playing it safe but ultimately doing the right thing, and demonstrating confidence in David. Others have put this theory out there, and I'm inclined to believe it could very well be the case. I have a feeling that RCA looked at the "fair" radio performance of CBTM and it's failure to break through on CHR. I think RCA wants a CHR hit for David, and soon. Like next. We all know CHR isn't everything, but one huge hit means sales, it means soundscan & charting numbers that translate to award nominations, and it means bragging rights with a higher profile for their artist.
Perhaps RCA's team felt there is a substantially greater chance of a lead-off single not only selling well, but breaking thru on CHR (even LO, a lead-off single, hit top 20 when it peaked at 20). The label simply may not have had confidence that any remaining tracks on DCTR would do that. There are no guarantees, of course, but a lead off single from a well publicized new album, generally stands the best chance of a CHR breakthrough.
In summary, maybe they just hedged their bets, or cut their losses, or whatever cliche you want to throw in there... and simply decided to put DCTR to bed and get started on a shiny new album. One that no longer has an American Idol team weighing in (I'm told the AI folks are GONE. It's all David, his band, his producer and RCA's A&R team from here on in).
So that's why I cut RCA some slack. We don't know what went into their decision to release CBTM. Clearly it did not sustain DCTR sales enough to keep it in the BB 200 and thus, generate more singles. So onward and upward to album #2 and fresh new singles. WIth AI out of the picture. I'm not saying they couldn't have released another single, or that I think Lie or Declaration would have a shot at CHR, but the label may not have research to support the cost involved. A new single for a new album is a much safer bet. Thus, a pure business decision, made during a recession.
Thanks for pointing out that link, LikeThis. I love how he shares this info, like he's aware of the singles discussions and I love how he said about the next cd, that he didn't want to divulge too much.
It was interesting that he said that One Second wouldn't be the next single, but he didn't say there wouldn't be a next single, it almost seemed to imply that there will be a next single. Hope springs eternal, what can I say, lol.
It was also fascinating that he gave a timeline for the cd, what he's aiming for at this point: write hard in January, be in the studio in February, and have something to contribute to the next AI season and Idol Gives Back, wow, that is news isn't it? It sounds like they really are aming for a single off the cd by May anyway, isn't that when Idol ends?
Well, at least we now have the final answer on whether or not OSTCYL is going to be the next single. Absolutely NO. So says the final arbiter here, the man himself, Mr. David Cook, in a Q&A at Mix 969.
This is a great article that was posted in another thread. http://tiny.cc/Z2kLq
It basically talks about a working musician and how he is able to make a living with just 40 hard core fans. I cut and past the quote I feel is most relevant.
"Giving my fans something new to talk about every two weeks meant exactly that: they talk about me every two weeks. They're not buying an album, raving about it, and losing interest after a few months, they're constantly spreading my name to their Twitter followers, coworkers, pets, etc. Regular delivery of quality material is damn near my one-step panacea for the whole industry."
I think David and RCA could take advantage of this more. This was also what I was talking about with Lil Wayne when he released tons of music towards the run up to the release of his record The Carter III.
I think that the live Ytubes of the concerts have filled the "regular delivery of quality material" idea this guy espouses. But when he goes on his hiatus to record I wonder what will happen.
David used to seem to be more interested in the grass roots idea. Reading the Leftez blog and all that. But he seems to have retreated to Twitter to fulfill the fan connection aspect of the business. But while that is nice I would rather have new music or live concerts or acoustic sets posted on DCO.
Without a doubt ! I would have seen him on Saturday night live and fell in love with his voice and would have loved Declaration and Light on. He has the kind of voice and music I love, so yes I would have definately checked him out even with American idol introducing us to him.
Good question, but I think I would have been exposed to David one way or another. Hearing LO play at the Avs game would have been huge for me. I always write down lyrics of songs I hear at sporting events that I like and look them up later. Then I heard LO at a pool on my vacation a couple days later. If I wasn't familiar with LO I would have been by then. It is a good song and I can honestly say I like it outside of the "David fandom" perception of it. The other thing is I was a big fan of Ryan star before I ever heard of David so when they came to Denver on tour I would have seen David even if I wasn't a fan...funny how that works out.
Would we have bought the CD if we hadn't heard David on Idol? I think Light On would have interested me enough to sample the CD out on Itunes (and we know what would have hapened then) - BUT - it took forever before I was aware of hearing Light On out here in New York and I was looking for it. Not sure if I am typical, but it takes some time for a radio song to get engrained in my psyche. Very rarely do I check out a song upon one listen - although I did check out Adele immediately after she was on SNL, so I imagine more than a few people did the same with David.
Yes, Declaration, SNL, what a moment it was, and I thought sure it would be a single. David and the guys obviously were so excited to play it, they came alive in a way they didn't with LO.
It's good he gets tv exposure for other songs, however for most people who are non-fans, it's a fleeting moment that they forget, except for the ones who are moved enough to go and seek out the artist on itunes and buy the song and maybe the cd. For most people it is in one ear and out the other, unlike a single which is played repeatedly on the radio for months, giving it strong reinforcement. As fans, we are aware of every tv appearance, we record them and rewatch them, but it's not like that for the general public.
Good question, would we have bought the cd if we hadn't heard him on Idol? I would have had a different impression of him from LO and CBTM, but I think his voice would have moved me to sample the cd on itunes, and I would have been so impressed with the rest of the cd that I would have bought it and became a fan, I am sure. However without seeing him weekly on Idol, I wouldn't "know" him the way we do, and the fan fervor wouldn't be so strong I think. I don't follow most singers that closely or go to their webpages, I just buy their music. But in my lifetime a few have moved me beyond that, and he would have been one, by any route, but it's true the singles weren't as powerful as others would have been (imo).
I always check out the top 100 songs on itunes, I sort them by genre, and definitely his would have stood out for me, even if the two singles weren't great songs to me, it is his voice and personality that make them special and memorable.
Just delurking here to say that I have been revisiting David's SNL appearance with the folks at DWOP.
The first time I heard Declaration, that song really grabbed me, and I just felt in my bones that it would
be a single, especially since the tour was named the Delcaration Tour. I am still trying to figure out
why it was never a single. I am thinking what a missed opportunity. It will be interesting to see
what happens with DCTR2.
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cookin' in the wild, wild west
I often wonder if I would have bought this album yet, or if I would seriously have David Cook on my radar, if I had not stumbled upon David WTF Cook on American Idol. I probably would not.
Time of My Life would not make much difference one way or the other. It is not the type of song I would usually pay a lot of attention to, or that would get me interested in an artist. A lot of artists at some point produce a "life events" type song that can be played at graduations, weddings, etc. It is a smart thing to do. It is a perfectly fine song, and very well sung. I would think this was just how this guy finally broke into radio, and that is fine.
I love Light On. It is interesting lyrically. It is interesting musically. It is interesting vocally. I never get tired of hearing that voice. Objectively, even if I still had no idea what a big David Cook fan I was destined to become, Light On is one of my favorite radio singles of the past 18 months. I would not have examined it lyrically or otherwise as I have, but I still would really like it. I long ago would have realized that even after months of frequent play on my local stations, I never get tired of hearing it.
So, would Come Back to Me have then been enough for me to think I might like an entire album from this guy? Probably not. I like it. I like it as much as most radio songs. I like the "summer" feel of it. I like the way the tempo picks up at the end. Is it rock enough for me to think I might like the album? No. At some point I would have realized I was not tired of hearing Come Back to Me, either. At that point I might have started to wonder what else this David Cook sang. Maybe.
Like a lot of people here, when CBTM was announced as a single, I thought it was expected to keep him on the radio. I thought being the most pop song it would get the quickest radio play, and then that would help prompt DJs to play any subsequent David Cook singles, and it would keep his name and voice out there in the public consciousness. I did not think it was to sell albums.
If I happened to catch Declaration on one of his TV appearances, that is what might have sealed the deal for me. Others have pointed out that about half of the songs on the album have gotten some TV exposure one way or another. That is extremely important, and it is extremely unusual, I think, for non-singles to get so much exposure. Nobody sells David Cook like David Cook. If we can not get another single, at least any TV appearance where we can hear another song will impress upon the viewing public what a prolific artist he is.
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Word Nerd 1180.
"Have some faith in me and I'll let you be who you need to be."
I, too, am hugely disappointed that it looks like there won't be another single from DCTR. And that the ones that were released, weren't co-written by David. I think if either of the first two singles had been one of the co-writes, I wouldn't be so upset about only getting two singles from DCTR. I want David's artistry to be shown to the public, and the label chose not to do that this time around.
On the other hand, I do believe that what QueenJ said about ROI is a fact of life in the music business, and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, simply because it doesn't suit what we would have liked to have happened. There is always going to be a disconnect when Art depends on business to promote it. If you took a sampling of all the fanbases for the different artists out there, how many would say that the singles released were the right ones, and that there were not songs on the albums that were 10 times better than those the label chose to release? Just following Kris Allen this year, a lot of his fans like the other songs they've heard from the Dolphins Tailgate concert better than Live Like We're Dying, and why oh why didn't the label choose xyz song? So, at the very least, we can take comfort that we are not alone in questioning the labels decisions on singles. It is an age old dilema, lol.
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~You are love, you are life, you are Peace of Mind~
Glad to see this thread is still alive and well. Love how we can all express different opinions without getting heated up.
I thought that was exactly what Cherry Lane was doing - marketing Dave's songs to other avenues such as TV and movies. Can't tell you how many times I've watched something on TV and thought one of Dave's songs would have worked well there....
I think the sporting connection for 1 second is great. Someone over at ESPN is clearly a big DC fan. Isn't part of the reason why Magic Platinum Ninja Rainbow is an iconic summer of 08 song the fact that it was used for the summer Olympics promo's? Would be great if the same thing happened with the World Series.
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Innocuous comments like that are how it starts. Then a year later your soul and free will are in a box in Cook's basement. (tm Wheeziev)
So glad to come back and see this thread alive and well : ) and loving all the thoughts about singles.
It's really fun to hear a new song by David. It didn't occur to me that it would be a single, just a song for a sports show. If it was a single too, that would be awesome.
queenj, thanks for the explain about twitter comment, I am paranoid sometimes and don't want to lose this thread where we can talk about singles.
I am still really hoping that BT and KOTN and some other songs near and dear to David's and the Anthemics' hearts will be put out on an EP or a deluxe cd by the end of the year or January. Too many good songs there not to. I think that BT would be a big hit, seriously.
If tptb are planning such a thing, they probably watch us angsting and laugh ... cruel aren't they. lol.
It was so disappointing not to get another single, but it's nice to know that others feel the same way and one isn't alone. And they are always pulling new surprises out of the hat, so what's next? Can't wait to see.
And yessss, Peach Mango, so cool that songs come out via Cherry Lane. David's songwriting is alive and well too.
Yes, I said that elsewhere that Ryan Star's "This Could Be the Year" was used on a NFL season highlights montage in December of 07 and was not released for sale (of course it is for sale now as part of Ryan's EP, but not related to its use on ESPN).
Just in case anyone is referring to the "negative" tweet from me, I was actually defending this thread when people were wondering if TPTB were poofing this thread when DCO went offline a couple nights ago. I wasn't happy with the conspiracy theories that TPTB would want to get rid of this thread. So just in case anyone was wondering, that is what was said.
I just saw some things over on twitter about how "negative" this thread is.
No way. I find that amazing. Why would anyone talk about this thread on twitter? LOL.
I'm not surprised at all. Twitter is the perfect place for a drive-by. Sometimes that's a good thing (#suckitcancer) and sometimes it's just a way to get your dig in about something you don't agree with without really having to back it up.
Anyway, I'm laughing because we can't even agree on why this thread was started in the first place. I thought it was because the topic, which was related to CJT but somewhat to the left or right of it, was threatening to hijack the thread because a lot of the stuff getting discussed again and again were not numbers focused -- even if some knowledge informing the discussion was gleaned from the numbers discussions. As we can see from how much this discussion has flourished in the few weeks this topic has been here, it obviously made sense to discuss this topic separately because CJT would have gone totally OT if we kept on like this.
So anyway -- to the topic at hand -- I'm loving that we heard a new "song" (I won't call it a single yet) on ESPN last night. On another board, QueenJ did caution that a Ryan Star song was used for some sporting event a year or so ago but was not released as a single available for download, so the song's (OSTCYL) becoming a single not a guaranteed thing. What I do think is interesting -- if it is true -- is the speculation (which I admittedly started, heh) that the song was licensed to ESPN via David's deal with Cherry Lane. As we know, the song was one of the snipples accidentally leaked a few weeks back on Cherry Lan'es website. I am excited that there are other avenues for David's songs to get out there to the public, other than through his label. And if the song does end up becoming a theme song of sorts for the World Series? Score! (By the way, wasn't one of Daughtry 's songs promoted on NASCAR (or some other sport) as part of his album promotion? Does anyone know what song that was and how that did via downloads? Was the song No Surprise?)
As the OP of this thread, I want to say I'm very pleased with how everyone has posted here. And I would like to clarify that my intention for this thread is that we can discuss all aspects of David and singles past, present and future. So all wishes, beliefs, ponies, issues and the like are welcome. Facts are fine, but pure speculation is fine too.
Last night was amazing in Daveland. Talk about marking his brand and getting him out there to the public. WE know about Carrie's special and EX:HE, but the general public is in for some goodies. And if it's true that One Second will be the official song for the World Series, then WOO to the HOO!
Slow and steady wins the race, and I'm liking what I see. I think there might still be a single, or not. But what's coming up will keep DC out there, and given all the surprises dropped on us the past/present week, who knows. He ain't WTF!Cook for nothing.
That said, I'm really enjoying the conversations here. I don't agree with everything said, but I don't expect everyone agrees with me, here or on other threads. Which is fine. We're all entitled to our opinions and since everyone is playing nice, have at it.
Speculate all you like. Opine on the facts. Get giddy with wishes and ponies. it's all good.
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***Hey Buddy! Want to go squirt in the dirt?***
**It's easy when it's done being hard**
We were told to keep the discussion on CJT all about numbers, and to start a new thread for discussion of singles, as a place where emotion would be allowed and not just numbers.
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Actually, I thought this discussion was appropriately moved out of CJT because none of us knows what the decision is, or why it was made.
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Word Nerd 1180.
"Have some faith in me and I'll let you be who you need to be."
I just saw some things over on twitter about how "negative" this thread is.
No way. I find that amazing. Why would anyone talk about this thread on twitter? LOL.
Negative? LOL. I think there has to be some room on a message board forum for people to express themselves. Of couse people have different ideas about what a fan board is for. That's why there are mods, to make those decisions.
We were told to keep the discussion on CJT all about numbers, and to start a new thread for discussion of singles, as a place where emotion would be allowed and not just numbers. So this thread shouldn't be a duplicate of CJT, imo. I just think fans are allowed to have feelings about things, and to feel passionately about some things. It's not all about business, and a lot of us don't come from a business oriented point of view.
The music industry is a business, but music is an art. Anyway we all use our best common sense and logic, and come to different conclusions, if everyone toed a party line it would be boring. Things get pretty heated in the long linear thread too, so I'm sorry I don't see this as a negative thread. Just one where different thoughts can be expressed. I find it refreshing to hear people's thoughts about singles. Ideas we don't agree with aren't going to hurt us or hurt David.
There is a lot of untapped profit by keeping some of the already existing goodies on the sideline.
Exactly. That's the bottom line, and I think what most people are trying to say. Putting out more music makes business sense as well as other considerations. But I don't think we have to prove anything. Some people enjoy the business details and others of us admit our eyes glaze over at that point.
mbpAwake, yes a new single would possibly stimulate album sales but the question is by how much? DCTR is selling 2,000 a week now even if they saw exponential increases it still may not sell enough to be worth the expense. That is where the cost/benefit question comes into play. I don't think no matter what they did could they get DCTR selling 10,000 or more a week. I wish I knew the exact breakeven point of sales and promotional expense meet but there clearly is a consideration there. Are there any other artists who released a single when their album fell off the BB200 and got it to exponentially increase? What is the typical album percentage sales increase for a third single? Prove to me the numbers work out and RCA is missing out on profits. Yes, I see your point they could have moved to put something out before DCTR fell off the BB200 but maybe they modeled into the future and didn't see that it would save the drop off.
peggymgr, those are some good thoughts. Typically most artists do not release in late Dec or early Jan because there is a freeze on radio during that time for the holidays. Most of the high profile albums and singles release in November and hope to get enough traction before the freeze. January is the worst month for album sales so most artists hope to weather to the storm and make it to February.
LMS, I agree with you that they could make money on selling extra content to the fanbase right now. Maybe they will put together some digital content for the holidays. There is a lot of untapped profit by keeping some of the already existing goodies on the sideline.
I am just delurking to make an observation. I have been trying to delurk for a while as I really want to become a more active participant here at DCO. I have made a few friends through the boards here but I would like to make more and the only way I know to do that is to start participating more.
I am probably just talking out of my rear end since I don't know diddly squat about the music industry, but I am hoping that once Lie is seen in December that it will boost sales of DCTR again and at that point we will see another single.
It kind of seems to me that given David's recent tour schedule it would have been hard, if not impossible to do a new single, and hopefully video, actual justice by actively promoting it.. Now that the tour is winding down, it makes perfect sense to me that a late December, early January release would be a perfect time for this to happen. It would keep David's name out there while he is in lock-down mode writing and taping the sophomore album. In these difficult economic times and with all the new stuff being released, there would be a whole lot of competition for sales right now. I'm not saying David couldn't hold his own, but it seems a bigger risk to me.
I can't say that I think RCA has handled David's career appropriately for his massive talent, but again, I am not in the music business and I have no idea what is appropriate. I can't for the life of me figure out why the only singles that were released and promoted were not co-written by DC, but they were both successful and have had longevity, so there has to be something to be said to that. Would other songs have been more successful? We won't ever know that for sure. At least not unless a few more are released.
I have no idea how long David signed a contract for with RCA but I imagine if he is unhappy with the way they have handled things he will be making a change as soon as he can. And after all, this is really supposed to be all about David and his level of contentment. We as fans have the right to angst over it, and of course we want more, more, and more. If we didn't, we wouldn't be the awesome fan base David deserves. Ultimately all I care about is David and how he feels his career is being handled, and whether or not he is happy. He seems to be, but who knows what goes on in his head that he doesn't speak about it to anyone other than that magic circle of people he surrounds himself with.
I guess to sum it up, I of course would like many more singles, not just one, but I am trying to be patient and wait to see what happens. I'm trying very hard not to throw stones at RCA just yet. I'm happy that they are pushing for another CD. Evidently RCA is happy with DC, at least right now anyway. There have been so many artists that only got one CD and if it didn't perform up to expectations, they were dropped. It doesn't appear that David has been dropped, or that there are any intentions of dropping him any time soon.
I don't mean to step on anyones toes, or indicate that any of you don't have the right to your own opinions. I have read back and I agree with a lot of peope. I'm just trying to voice my opinion, and I guess you can probably tell, I am more of a "glass half full" kind of person. I always try to find the positives in any situation. I do have to admit though that I am frustrated and disappointed just like the rest of you, that we don't have a new single yet. That's all I've got for now. Oh, and sorry for the long post. That definitely wasn't my intention when I started this.
Waterfall:
yeah that's the thing, the one thing we agree on here is David Cook and his music, otherwise there are probably a lot of opinions.
Which is, and should be, okay. I just saw some things over on twitter about how "negative" this thread is. It should be okay for fans on the site to respectfully discuss their thoughts and concerns over the promotion of new singles, etc, without it being viewed as "negative." No one on here, to my knowledge (posting, anyway) has a direct line to the record label, or David, so all of our discussions are based on what we know, we perceive, and what we hope for. It all comes down to opinions and all are valid, who care about DC and his career...and we all do, even if we have different views.
An opinion: I think the label and 19 probably make decisions that DC doesn't always necessarily agree with or have a hand in. But that's the music business. And it's hard to predict, as LIt Gal pointed out with Ryan.
Today was a good day in DC world however.....and lots of good stuff coming up. ciao bellas.
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LiterateGal:
David said in a recent interview... Come Back To Me is still out there getting played. Let's see what it can do for just a bit more time and we'll see what comes around the holidays. It think it will be Lie.
I wonder if you are referring to the same interview I earlier referenced, from 4 or 5 weeks ago, where he says if it was up to him he would put all of the songs out there and see what sticks. He does not say anything about the "Holidays" in this interview, though. But he does not in any way indicate he thinks there might not BE another single at all.
It is one of the real cute interviews. I am glad you inspired me to find it. Here's the DCO thread for it:
http://www.davidcookofficial.com/fi-en/content/awesome-interview-fox-17-...
When I think about it, David himself has always been in favor of putting it all out there for whoever might be interested. He has always been someone who is openly fine with people passing his older music around, putting up youTubes using his music, having stations like kcradio play random selections, etc. People in "marketing" might disagree, but I always get the vibe from him that once he publishes something he is all for any of it getting to as many ears as possible.
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Word Nerd 1180.
"Have some faith in me and I'll let you be who you need to be."
I don't have a clue how much it costs to promote a song to radio. But I am guessing that you have costs when a new song is released
- Adds on various Radio and Retail sites
- Video shoot costs
- Marketing push with PD's at Radio corporations
- Add on Itunes (although I can't remember if that costs money or Itunes just picks em)
But I still think RCA and David should think out of the box regarding DC's music. It doesn't just have to be about releasing a new single to radio if they are dead set against a new song. How much would it cost to bundle an EP or Deluxe CD for Itunes exclusively? Have an official fan website single for purchase? Release a few videos on the site of live songs? I am not sure why his music release has been so limited to the CD only. Yeah they wanted to drive sales to the CD when it was first released but now it shouldn't matter. Now is the time to build brand loyalty by releasing music in between the wait for the new CD. It's not a new concept. Not sure why they haven't taken advantage of any of these new ideas and marketing strategy's. It seems they have no flexibility whatsoever. It's very frustrating as a fan of DC's music. It is becoming more apparent that the old way of selling music as a bundle of 12 songs only every year or 2 years is going by the wayside.
QueenJ:
Look, I understand this thread was created to voice concerns and criticisms and I get that. But I just think the most productive discussion comes about with correct information. I know a lot of people don't want to look at the money side of things but that is a reality that a business is faced with in making strategic decisions.
QueenJ, I can not fathom where you are coming from with this comment. Absolutely every comment I have seen, in this of any other thread, asking for another single, is from someone who has specific tracks in mind that they feel would be very successful and bring in more fans and more album purchases. You believe another single will loose money. Others of us are not only not convinced of that, but, as has been repeatedly stated, we see it as a huge missed money-making opportunity if another single is not released.
ETA: If your comments were to some degree a reaction to my sarcasm about the BB200, I absolutely stand by that. If the label was ready on Oct 1st with a new single, but waited until DCTR fell off the BB200 and then dropped the single, I do not give them a pass and say the decision was out of their hands. I do not believe that is what happened at all.
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Word Nerd 1180.
"Have some faith in me and I'll let you be who you need to be."
Antul, I have seen no one put down David's art or question his abilities, not in a single post. I am not sure where that is coming from. I consider David incomparable, and saleable. If anyone doubt the sales a late single would get, it would be due to thinking it would be due to the lesser promotion normally given a late single compared to a lead single, not because we think his writing is inferior. Radio seems more receptive to lead singles, and fans often are, too. Maybe he could have a hit on a late single in spite of lesser promo and openness to it, but maybe not. But no one here has so much as insinuated David is less than stellar.
Hi, don't think I have shared my thoughts here yet, but DCTR is so darned good, all the songs should be singles.....I just do not get it. Why isn't he being played all over the radio? Every single song on this record is fantastic, he is fantastic, and when a record like this comes out, I expect to hear at least most of the songs on the radio, am I naive? Here in Ct I never hear David played, or hardlly ever, and where on earth is Bar-ba-sol?
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karen <3 ~ david
"I feel alive beside you and all at once I am whole again.."
Hi Queen J. I agree with all of your sentiments ^^^. I think that there are two questions:
1) Why doesn't the world love DC as much as "I" do, because if they did, there would be another single? and
2) Why doesn't the record company love DC as much as "I" do, because if they did, there would be another single?
Neither question has an answer that we mere fans can comprehend. Ahh, I know that there's a master plan, because if there weren't, then David would have more to say on the issue. He's playing mum, and we have to respect that. He must know something that we don't. (Imagine that!!!) He must be more confident than we.
I remember Ryan Star speaking at Carrboro about his issues with the EP and how the record company was needing more stroking and reassurance that everything would be well. That was in May and now it's November and "Breathe" just hit the world's doorstep with a mighty video and promotional package.
I say, be patient DCpeeps. We're too close to it and cannot see the forest. Step back and wait just a little longer. David said in a recent interview... Come Back To Me is still out there getting played. Let's see what it can do for just a bit more time and we'll see what comes around the holidays. It think it will be Lie.
Hmm, well when I think of fake music, I think more of Britney, and people like that. And when I think of atrocious horrible music, I think of rap and some heavy metal. And when I think of manufactured bands I think of In Sync, 98 degrees, spice girls, the monkees, etc.
I don't mean to do a treatise on Nickelback, I only heard of them recently and bought a few of their songs on itunes, I own music by hundreds of people (it seems) and they are just one, I didn't understand the anger they arouse or the scorn. Someone else here said the same thing, so I guess after selling 30 million records worldwide not everyone hates them. Kinda like Barry Manilow, I think his music is awful but he also sells gazillions. But I don't think he's corporate, just moves to his own drum.
yeah that's the thing, the one thing we agree on here is David Cook and his music, otherwise there are probably a lot of opinions.
waterfall, I'll give you my definition of corporate rock. Sanitized, safe, by-the-numbers, soulless music that sticks tightly to a formulaic sound, and repeats ad nauseum. I swear I can't tell one Nickelback song from the other. The words change but the song remains the same. (Wasn't that a Led Zeppelin song?)
I know that I would never wish that kind of 'success' on anyone, especially David Cook. It's the old philosophical dilemna, "at what price success?" If you're willing to sell your artistic vision, and just crank out what the boardroom wants you to, how happy can you be? That's where the commerce-art line comes into clear focus for me. Mass commercial success is not always good for the soul. It all depends on how much of yourself you lose in the process. Ultimately, as fans and the audience, we are not the ones making those decisions. We can decide what we enjoy listening to, whether it gets the corporate stamp of approval and receives radio play, or not. And we get to observe and comment, the specialty here.
Anyways, as I said in the earlier post, we all have different tastes in music. Our ears and hearts each have their own needs. What we do share here is a love of David's music. Aaahhhh.....
I get confused because I think that means said person would like a little information about why there is not another single. Or is everyone just venting? Maybe someone can explain that to me?
I think it's just that there are a lot of people on this board, and a lot of different opinions. There is not one right way to see it. They have certain ideas on CJT but that doesn't mean there can't be other ideas in another thread. A lot is speculation and not everything is fact, and many of us have read the explanations given in other places and still have differing thoughts, and that really shouldn't be a problem imo. And if some of it is venting, that seems okay too. Because really venting about singles hasn't been encouraged, and some are still absorbing the idea that there might not be another single.
I see the context got taken out of my comment, it was in response to saying why not just throw a song out there with no promotion and see if it sticks. My point was I want a David penned song to get rolled out with the maximum support and chance to succeed. Yes I agree that I want his music out there and I have faith it will succeed. My point is there are better times to do that than others.
I know not everyone like this comment from CJT, but the label and specifically David do not have infinite money. Promotion is a recoverable expense taken from the artist. The BB200 comment is brought up because that is the point where sales do not make up for the expense of active promotion.
Look, I understand this thread was created to voice concerns and criticisms and I get that. But I just think the most productive discussion comes about with correct information. I know a lot of people don't want to look at the money side of things but that is a reality that a business is faced with in making strategic decisions. I see people make comments all the time about "I can't fathom why there is not another single". I get confused because I think that means said person would like a little information about why there is not another single. Or is everyone just venting? Maybe someone can explain that to me?
antul, The bottom line for the label is to release the songs that tested the strongest - no matter who wrote them. But I also remember reading that no AI winner has ever had a self-penned single as their first release. It might not be quick enough for folks here, but David has and is breaking new ground for Idol winners. After all, he did have the most authored or co-authored songs of any Idol winner on his first major label release.
While I love the album, I don't feel there are obvious hits that I feel confident would have been better than LO and CBTM. The only songs I do feel are strong radio contenders are Lie and Avalanche. And I, for one, am not yet ready to close the book on them, although it isn't looking too hopeful right now. But, as has been stated repeatedly, the problem with both those songs is that they lie in the same mood/speed category as CBTM. While I agree that CBTM is not the best representation of Dave's sound, it has been fairly successful on radio and in getting David alot of new fans. You wouldn't know it from many discussions here, but I've heard of many for whom that song is their favorite and the reason they came out to see him on tour.
I don't think anyone here doubts that David 'has the goods'. Its all a question of what will propel David's career forward while allowing him the most possible integrity in the process. Our favorite songs are not necessarily the ones that will accomplish that goal, even if, in a perfect world, it would work out that way. That doesn't mean that David's songs are in any way, 'less-than'.
Sometimes I do think that David is in this tricky zone in that the music he loves may not have major commercial appeal, and yet he has decided to give it a go in the big tent of commercial music and radio. And as a rocker coming off the AI TV show, that road is even trickier, hence this first transitional album. So there's this dance with tricky steps to learn in order to translate his musical visions into accessible music without losing the edge and rock power he feels. I think all rockers, to one degree or another, have to face this issue. And then there's the symptom of the decline of rock music in seeing how low the audience impressions are on that format, how many rock stations have gone under. So there's that balance of how a new rock musician can get major exposure while keeping the integrity of their music. It's not an easy riddle to answer. It's a process, one that is somewhat complicated by working within a major label and having to play by their rules.
But, all things considered, I think David's doing a great job so far and I look forward to what lies ahead.
waterfall, See this is why music is such an individual taste. Different strokes and all that. I can't stand Nickelback. To me, its the definition of corporate rock, music by suits instead of by artists. That's why they have such a bad name in the music world.
I'm curious, why call them corporate rock? What does that mean?
Let's see, I just looked them up on wiki. They are a Canadian band (yay, love Canada). They've sold 30 million records worldwide! Wow, some of those musicians who disdain them might be jealous, ha.
"Nickelback ranks as the 11th best selling music act of the 2000s, and places as the 2nd best selling foreign act in the US behind The Beatles for the 2000s." Wow again. Hmm, they formed in 1995 in Canada, no mention of being formed by a corporation. There first hit single was in 2001, "This is How you Remind Me." Wow, I really did like that song, didn't realize they did that. Anyway, there is a synopsis of the criticism about them in the wiki article, too. Nothing about corporations or suits, just criticism. Some people don't please critics but have huge success, that's just how it is sometimes. They're not my favorite band but I have several songs by them that I like having in my mix. I was always curious about the criticism and still don't really see it but whatev.
Rob Thomas and John Mayer, on the other hand, I really appreciate, as do many musicians out there. I don't love all their stuff and if you don't enjoy mellower music, of course, you won't like theirs. But I do consider them to be incredible songwriters.
John Mayer is a terrible songwriter? Well, you might not care for him but obviously millions do as evidenced by his more than 2.5 million twitter followers. And he's won umpteen Grammies, AMA and other awards. Your Body is a Wonderland, Daughters, Waiting on the World to Change - great songs.
I don't really know what most musicians appreciate. I think I appreciate a lot of music that is critically acceptable, but defnitely I don't like everything that other musicians like. I do like mellow music, very much. While Mayer has a nice mellow sound, it bugs me that he repeats the same line 10-20 times in most of his songs. Or so it seems to me. I like "Waitin on the World" but after he repeated that line a zillion times I got sick of listening to it. Same with Wonderland. Daughters repeats the chorus a lot too. I think he is good musically, but not lyrically.
Rob Thomas, sorry just don't like his music. Have tried and have been given it to try, and just don't like it. But that doesn't make me a musical ignoramous okay? LOL. Nothing pleases everyone.
Brilliant post, Scott, I enjoyed every word.
Whoever said that about Kelly's m&g comment, thank you for sharing that! She has been with RCA for 8 years, as you said, and she knows something about the label.
Scott, like you said, there are the producers, and then there are the decision makers. And sometimes the twain doesn't meet.
Often the decision makers are businesspeople with little knowledge of, in this case, music. This is happening in the publishing industry too. Decisions are made now by marketing people, not by editors. All the arts have been taken over by large corporations, and dollar signs are all some of them see.
But whatever! It will all work out I am sure. It's been pretty sad seeing what's happened to Kelly. Her new cd is way too poppy for her overall. But she has made some bad moves too. Dave is really smart and savvy, I think he will find the way to realize his artistic goals as well as succeed in the market.
Scott, like you said, if the next cd does not contain any songs not penned by David, and nothing over-produced, and if the band has a hand in arrangments, then there is no "ammunition" as you said. Which is exactly what I'm hoping for too. And I hazard to think maybe David has that in mind. Thus his eagerness to get back to the drawing board.
Great discussion here! You guys have given me so many things to think about that I don't really have a considered opinion now. Except that I want another single. And a whole bunch of random things:
# One thing about TPTB not getting the kind of artist that Dave is.... I'm going to bring up the Snipples, even though there seems to be a tacit agreement on DCO that we shouldn't. I think part of the reason that I love them so much is that they are not so overproduced as DCTR. But even more - the lyrics just seem so much more David-ey than most of the songs on DCTR. He's got quite a distinct lyrical style, that's not nearly as direct or simplistic as most of the DCTR lyrics. I dunno - when I read the lyrics for the Snipples, my first thought was that the reason why these songs didn't make the record was the record execs going 'Huh? What does this even mean? None of our listeners are going to understand it'.
I may be way off base here. In fact I probably am. So ignore it at will
# I''ve never worried about the commercial success of the artists I like, because I'm used to being somewhat of a niche market. And I get the feeling that even commercial rock is becoming somewhat of a niche market in today's music marketplace. I say that because of what I hear and see played on global TV, local radio and in bars and clubs in South Africa, so maybe I'm wrong. And I'd like to hear what the rest of you think of that. But anywhoo, getting back to the point that I'm trying to make - the kind of music that I want to hear from Dave is probably not going to be the kind of music that will make him a megastar. And from a purely selfish point of view, I'm okay with that.
# As for Dave - what I want for him is that he gets to make the kind of music he wants to make. But since I'm not him. I don't feel qualified to say that that isn't exactly what he is doing. As to singles, I do get the feeling that CBTM was not his choice. But I get why that single may have been chosen. I am rather mystified why it didn't do better - I thought it had mainstream appeal.
# I guess the main thing I am trying to say is that although I would have preferred to hear different singles (and different production values from DCTR), I don't feel I have enough insight into the many things that factored into that decision to say that TPTB has dropped the ball.
Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness post - I guess I still have a lot of thinking to do!
nnocuous comments like that are how it starts. Then a year later your soul and free will are in a box in Cook's basement. (tm Wheeziev)